7 ms·

Advice for young developers

31 points by davemello 13y ago

bsirkia 13y ago
Definitely all good points, only quibble is that not everyone has the option to work for the their first company for free or would have to take a second paying job to make it work. That limits the amount of time you can spend on your own projects and personal development.
showsover 13y ago
Why I wouldn't work for you: I don't work for free. My time is more valuable than free. Perhaps at reduced rate, but never for free. Working for free makes your clients balk when you finally dare to charge. I like my free time. Free time gives me a chance to do what I want, as I'm young only once. It's not always easy to have some time off when in college / uni, so the time you can make is time you (should) treasure. How you fill that time does not matter, but it should be fun (as that's what free time should be). The other points I agree with. Building a portfolio is a great way to get at least one foot in the door. Writing code and text is also a very good way to learn to express thoughts (both of which I do too little of, personally), which also helps your future senior to get a reading of you.
- pathy 13y ago
  Agreed, I find it unprofessional to work for free and you do yourself and everyone else a disfavor. With two exceptions; internships via universities (where it is part of your education) and certain kinds of work for non-profits. And even then I am reluctant to work for free. If you cannot even contribute at least minimum wage worth of value to a company, why bother contribute at all - go spend time on open source or for a charity instead. Or you know, go out and network at events (or bars for that matter). The other points made in the post are good and relevant. Being able to show off what you have done is always helpful and writing a blog is always worthwhile in my opinion, even if barely anyone reads it (hello my own blog).
- probably_wrong 13y ago
  > I don't work for free. My time is more valuable than free. I think this doesn't probably apply for students and/or recent graduates, as it would be a way of escaping the typical "I can't get a job because I don't have experience, and I can't get experience because I don't have a job" catch-22. True, my time is always worth a certain amount (probably higher than I assume), but if I get a tangible benefit out of it, I could assume that I just switched from "I pay you and you give me knowledge and a degree" to "I pay you and you give me experience and a recomendation".
  - showsover 13y ago
    No, working for free is not a good idea. Perhaps for non-profits, but even then you are better off to either charge a friends' price, or just donate money. How would someone that just graduated pay rent and food when they don't have a job that, you know, pays them?
    - acchow 13y ago
      Wealthy parents. An ethical issue with working for free is it gives an advantage to kids with wealthy parents, lowering mobility.
chollida1 13y ago
> Work for free. This is my boilerplate advice for anyone getting started in any industry, not just web developers. Finding someone that will let you work with them is not that hard, if you offer to do it for free. Yikes.... I would never advise someone to work for free for a company. If you want to work on an open source project then that's probably a better use of your time. The problem with free is that it lowers your worth to a company.m Heck even university co-op terms pay well these days.
- ed209 13y ago
  That depends on how you class "for free". Most people think free = not being paid money. I'm actually looking into working for the whole of July for no monetary compensation. But in return, I expect to learn something from whoever I work with/for. Most of the time money is good. You can exchange that for many things in life. But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even more) money. And from an employer point of view, you should not be judged by the size of your pay cheque, but by how much value you actually add to a company.
  - davemello 13y ago
    >> But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even more) money. Thanks ed209, that's great, and exactly what I was getting at.
  - jmduke 13y ago
    >> Most of the time money is good. You can exchange that for many things in life. But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even more) money. This is a false dichotomy. With some very rare exceptions, you do not choose between monetary compensation and experience: you need -- and should get -- both.
    - showsover 13y ago
      Especially when starting out.
    - 13y ago
RuggeroAltair 13y ago
Advertising the 'work for free' thing pushes towards establishing a dangerous culture, in which slowly all first jobs are expected to be unpaid. And some companies would (and some already do) include these 'free' people in their business model. There is no reason why those companies can't pay a basic internship salary which at least allows you not to work somewhere else to be able to eat and sleep somewhere else than a friends couch (or floor). And if the company really can't afford that basic salary, I would double question if it's really worth for you to work for them.
- estebank 13y ago
  I've been seeing that a lot here in Europe, lots of people holding Masters degrees unrelated to IT doing unpaid/underpaid internships. I find the entire idea completely bonkers. I did an unpaid internship that lasted 5 months in South America... when I was 17, because it was needed to get my Electronics Technician HS diploma. Even then, some of my luckier fellow students got a token payment. I've been working since I started college, and even when underpaid at first, never had trouble finding work. Although I'm a college drop out, I didn't have trouble finding a job in a different continent even before coming here. I'm guessing that we are extremely lucky to be in our industry, as there is no lack of work, even outside of the Bay Area.
  - RuggeroAltair 13y ago
    I'm originally from Italy, and I can tell you that so many of my friends had to go through unpaid internships which were 'offered' with the excuse of a learning opportunity but were basically considered just as free employees. The high unemployment rate pushes people to accept them to have at least more experience to use in their following job applications, but basically this created an ecosystem in which there is companies that count of a few employees working for free. I can also tell you that in most cases the owners of these companies are not exactly starving, so there isn't a real reason why they shouldn't pay for good work. Fortunately it seems that the startup culture is picking up a little, and hopefully this will improve the situation. But I agree with you, and here in the Bay we are fairly lucky.
- 13y ago
davemello 13y ago
Thanks, all, for the feedback! I just wanted to clarify on my 'work for free' point. If you have no real-world experience, get some. While you may not get paid at first, the amount of marketable skills you learn will more than pay for that. The point here is not to offer to work for free in hopes that you might eventually get hired (although that can sometimes happen). Rather, the point is that there are a lot of things that you can only learn by being thrown into the context of a fast-moving, multi-faceted company with real clients.
- Adirael 13y ago
  It's better to build something for yourself or contribute in Open Source than working for free on a for-profit company. I also don't think it's easy to get "hired" for no money in most companies, legal issues aside, training people is NOT free and you can't trust and give responsibilities to someone you're not paying. On Europe is common to do unpaid internships as part of your education, but the companies taking you in get money or tax rebates to do so.
- cunac 13y ago
  You should pay at least minimum wage which is intended for unskilled labor. Even training that person will provide value to you and you will learn so much about yourself.
- mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
  Thanks for joining the discussion. Qualified it is still bad advice. The last thing the software industry needs is a hazing period for unscrupulous companies to take advantage of. If you're really lacking in any demonstrable experience then work on a personal project or an open source project until you can show that you know what you're doing. The pay is the same and what you'll have to show for it is just as valuable (if not a lot more) for future employers -- at least the ones you're likely to actually want to work for. >> "fast-moving, multi-faceted company with real clients" Before I got into software I built a public relations agency from the ground up. I used to dream in corporate double-talk. Even I don't know what that phrase means.
  - deleted 13y ago
geekam 13y ago
Working on non-technical project is a good advice. I like to paint and indulge in photography and I have often seen ideas jumping from one field to the other. Like working on a project that requires front-end work sometimes gets help from while I am splashing paint on my canvas. Photography on the other hand, lets me indulge in the subject at hand. A developer is someone who developer, an idea, a vision into reality. I just do not associate "being a developer" to "being a programmer" anymore. I did not like the "work for free" advice a lot but I do think that sometimes the only way to work on something that you really want to work on is to give your time and energy to it, for free. I am sure there are people who will not agree with me but I am a big proponent of non-profits (esp the ones who ask for your services, more than money).
bad_user 13y ago
I'm 30 and I already have 10 years of experience. The job I got at 20 was a shitty job. The next job after that was also shitty. I went through soul-sucking activities at my day job and it almost made me switch careers. Unfortunately I needed the salary. And fortunately I evolved. If I would be 20 again and I wouldn't need a salary, then I would probably find a bunch of acquaintances to start a project of our own. Something not necessarily with a prospect of a future. Something fun, with no clients, no deadlines and no managers. Internships are also great, as interns are usually left to work on fun things. But it really depends on the company you're internshiping with. The big ones are kind of cool for interns and I would prefer them (e.g. Google, Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, Amazon), even though I wouldn't want to work there full time. I would also never work for free. Ask for a salary, even when doing an internship. If a company wants for-free interns, that's not the kind of company you want to work with.
RobotCaleb 13y ago
Scrolling on that site is broken. I can't page down without hiding text that I haven't read yet.
pmelendez 13y ago
Hmmm... I have a feeling that I will see tomorrow a "Why I wouldn't hire you" article over here.
coldcode 13y ago
If you hire people who work for "real" free at a for-profit company, you could get in a lot of legal and tax trouble depending on where you are.
joshdance 13y ago
I found a health tech company I wanted to work for an asked for an internship. They not only paid me, it is now my full time job. Offer to work for free and if you generate significant value they will pay you.
zachgersh 13y ago
Why is this targeted at young developers? Seems like this is advice for any developer who is looking to get their start in the industry. I would replace working for free with contributing to an open source project or working to become a maintainer. People have already pointed this out and I wanted to agree!

31 points by davemello 13y ago

Definitely all good points, only quibble is that not everyone has the option to work for the their first company for free or would have to take a second paying job to make it work. That limits the amount of time you can spend on your own projects and personal development.

showsover 13y ago

Why I wouldn't work for you: I don't work for free. My time is more valuable than free. Perhaps at reduced rate, but never for free. Working for free makes your clients balk when you finally dare to charge. I like my free time. Free time gives me a chance to do what I want, as I'm young only once. It's not always easy to have some time off when in college / uni, so the time you can make is time you (should) treasure. How you fill that time does not matter, but it should be fun (as that's what free time should be). The other points I agree with. Building a portfolio is a great way to get at least one foot in the door. Writing code and text is also a very good way to learn to express thoughts (both of which I do too little of, personally), which also helps your future senior to get a reading of you.

pathy 13y ago
Agreed, I find it unprofessional to work for free and you do yourself and everyone else a disfavor. With two exceptions; internships via universities (where it is part of your education) and certain kinds of work for non-profits. And even then I am reluctant to work for free. If you cannot even contribute at least minimum wage worth of value to a company, why bother contribute at all - go spend time on open source or for a charity instead. Or you know, go out and network at events (or bars for that matter). The other points made in the post are good and relevant. Being able to show off what you have done is always helpful and writing a blog is always worthwhile in my opinion, even if barely anyone reads it (hello my own blog).
probably_wrong 13y ago
> I don't work for free. My time is more valuable than free. I think this doesn't probably apply for students and/or recent graduates, as it would be a way of escaping the typical "I can't get a job because I don't have experience, and I can't get experience because I don't have a job" catch-22. True, my time is always worth a certain amount (probably higher than I assume), but if I get a tangible benefit out of it, I could assume that I just switched from "I pay you and you give me knowledge and a degree" to "I pay you and you give me experience and a recomendation".
- showsover 13y ago
  No, working for free is not a good idea. Perhaps for non-profits, but even then you are better off to either charge a friends' price, or just donate money. How would someone that just graduated pay rent and food when they don't have a job that, you know, pays them?
  - acchow 13y ago
    Wealthy parents. An ethical issue with working for free is it gives an advantage to kids with wealthy parents, lowering mobility.

chollida1 13y ago

> Work for free. This is my boilerplate advice for anyone getting started in any industry, not just web developers. Finding someone that will let you work with them is not that hard, if you offer to do it for free. Yikes.... I would never advise someone to work for free for a company. If you want to work on an open source project then that's probably a better use of your time. The problem with free is that it lowers your worth to a company.m Heck even university co-op terms pay well these days.

ed209 13y ago
That depends on how you class "for free". Most people think free = not being paid money. I'm actually looking into working for the whole of July for no monetary compensation. But in return, I expect to learn something from whoever I work with/for. Most of the time money is good. You can exchange that for many things in life. But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even more) money. And from an employer point of view, you should not be judged by the size of your pay cheque, but by how much value you actually add to a company.
- davemello 13y ago
  >> But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even more) money. Thanks ed209, that's great, and exactly what I was getting at.
- jmduke 13y ago
  >> Most of the time money is good. You can exchange that for many things in life. But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even more) money. This is a false dichotomy. With some very rare exceptions, you do not choose between monetary compensation and experience: you need -- and should get -- both.
  - showsover 13y ago
    Especially when starting out.
  - 13y ago

RuggeroAltair 13y ago

Advertising the 'work for free' thing pushes towards establishing a dangerous culture, in which slowly all first jobs are expected to be unpaid. And some companies would (and some already do) include these 'free' people in their business model. There is no reason why those companies can't pay a basic internship salary which at least allows you not to work somewhere else to be able to eat and sleep somewhere else than a friends couch (or floor). And if the company really can't afford that basic salary, I would double question if it's really worth for you to work for them.

estebank 13y ago
I've been seeing that a lot here in Europe, lots of people holding Masters degrees unrelated to IT doing unpaid/underpaid internships. I find the entire idea completely bonkers. I did an unpaid internship that lasted 5 months in South America... when I was 17, because it was needed to get my Electronics Technician HS diploma. Even then, some of my luckier fellow students got a token payment. I've been working since I started college, and even when underpaid at first, never had trouble finding work. Although I'm a college drop out, I didn't have trouble finding a job in a different continent even before coming here. I'm guessing that we are extremely lucky to be in our industry, as there is no lack of work, even outside of the Bay Area.
- RuggeroAltair 13y ago
  I'm originally from Italy, and I can tell you that so many of my friends had to go through unpaid internships which were 'offered' with the excuse of a learning opportunity but were basically considered just as free employees. The high unemployment rate pushes people to accept them to have at least more experience to use in their following job applications, but basically this created an ecosystem in which there is companies that count of a few employees working for free. I can also tell you that in most cases the owners of these companies are not exactly starving, so there isn't a real reason why they shouldn't pay for good work. Fortunately it seems that the startup culture is picking up a little, and hopefully this will improve the situation. But I agree with you, and here in the Bay we are fairly lucky.
13y ago

davemello 13y ago

Thanks, all, for the feedback! I just wanted to clarify on my 'work for free' point. If you have no real-world experience, get some. While you may not get paid at first, the amount of marketable skills you learn will more than pay for that. The point here is not to offer to work for free in hopes that you might eventually get hired (although that can sometimes happen). Rather, the point is that there are a lot of things that you can only learn by being thrown into the context of a fast-moving, multi-faceted company with real clients.

Adirael 13y ago
It's better to build something for yourself or contribute in Open Source than working for free on a for-profit company. I also don't think it's easy to get "hired" for no money in most companies, legal issues aside, training people is NOT free and you can't trust and give responsibilities to someone you're not paying. On Europe is common to do unpaid internships as part of your education, but the companies taking you in get money or tax rebates to do so.
cunac 13y ago
You should pay at least minimum wage which is intended for unskilled labor. Even training that person will provide value to you and you will learn so much about yourself.
mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
Thanks for joining the discussion. Qualified it is still bad advice. The last thing the software industry needs is a hazing period for unscrupulous companies to take advantage of. If you're really lacking in any demonstrable experience then work on a personal project or an open source project until you can show that you know what you're doing. The pay is the same and what you'll have to show for it is just as valuable (if not a lot more) for future employers -- at least the ones you're likely to actually want to work for. >> "fast-moving, multi-faceted company with real clients" Before I got into software I built a public relations agency from the ground up. I used to dream in corporate double-talk. Even I don't know what that phrase means.
- deleted 13y ago

geekam 13y ago

Working on non-technical project is a good advice. I like to paint and indulge in photography and I have often seen ideas jumping from one field to the other. Like working on a project that requires front-end work sometimes gets help from while I am splashing paint on my canvas. Photography on the other hand, lets me indulge in the subject at hand. A developer is someone who developer, an idea, a vision into reality. I just do not associate "being a developer" to "being a programmer" anymore. I did not like the "work for free" advice a lot but I do think that sometimes the only way to work on something that you really want to work on is to give your time and energy to it, for free. I am sure there are people who will not agree with me but I am a big proponent of non-profits (esp the ones who ask for your services, more than money).

bad_user 13y ago

I'm 30 and I already have 10 years of experience. The job I got at 20 was a shitty job. The next job after that was also shitty. I went through soul-sucking activities at my day job and it almost made me switch careers. Unfortunately I needed the salary. And fortunately I evolved. If I would be 20 again and I wouldn't need a salary, then I would probably find a bunch of acquaintances to start a project of our own. Something not necessarily with a prospect of a future. Something fun, with no clients, no deadlines and no managers. Internships are also great, as interns are usually left to work on fun things. But it really depends on the company you're internshiping with. The big ones are kind of cool for interns and I would prefer them (e.g. Google, Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, Amazon), even though I wouldn't want to work there full time. I would also never work for free. Ask for a salary, even when doing an internship. If a company wants for-free interns, that's not the kind of company you want to work with.

RobotCaleb 13y ago

Scrolling on that site is broken. I can't page down without hiding text that I haven't read yet.

pmelendez 13y ago

Hmmm... I have a feeling that I will see tomorrow a "Why I wouldn't hire you" article over here.

coldcode 13y ago

If you hire people who work for "real" free at a for-profit company, you could get in a lot of legal and tax trouble depending on where you are.

joshdance 13y ago

I found a health tech company I wanted to work for an asked for an internship. They not only paid me, it is now my full time job. Offer to work for free and if you generate significant value they will pay you.

zachgersh 13y ago

Why is this targeted at young developers? Seems like this is advice for any developer who is looking to get their start in the industry. I would replace working for free with contributing to an open source project or working to become a maintainer. People have already pointed this out and I wanted to agree!