5 ms·

It's more than a baby box. I do not know how familiar you are with some European countries' social system, but young parents are usually given quite a few month

by jan_g 13y ago

It's more than a baby box. I do not know how familiar you are with some European countries' social system, but young parents are usually given quite a few months of vacation time and salary from the state, a sort of children allowance until a child is 18 years old (100EUR or so), tax deductions for every child until a child is 18 years old, kindergarten 'bonuses', free health care for every child and similar. So this definitely deserves a lot of attention as it makes young parents' lives quite easier. And I am not arguing against it, just that in the end someone has to pay for it.

rlpb 13y ago
> And I am not arguing against it, just that in the end someone has to pay for it. What if it turned out that the baby pays for it because the improved average upbringing allows the baby to earn more and consequently pay more tax in absolute terms, though not in percentage terms? Would it be a cost to the taxpayer then?
- jan_g 13y ago
  As it happens, I am one of such tax payers, since I live in a country with similar arrangements for young parents as Finland. Also, by having two kids, I have been twice a beneficiary of this system. To repeat, I completely support such system, I just don't agree with ProcessBlue's statement, quote, ".. bit fuzzy but if I remember correctly the FREE tier of forming babby in Finland includes ...".
- icebraining 13y ago
  It depends. "Brain drain" is a real problem for many nations.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    Not the ones with advanced economies and reliable social safety nets, though. People tend to leave places that don't offer economic security and opportunity for those that do.
- jrokisky 13y ago
  I think this idea is often over looked. How much money/time is spent solving problems caused by overwork?
- flagnog 13y ago
  but you're assuming that this improves the upbringing.
  - saraid216 13y ago
    If you're suggesting that health and parental attention does not contribute to a quality upbringing, I'd like to see some studies cited.
- Domenic_S 13y ago
  What if the improved upbringing opens up more opportunities for the child -- in other countries? So now instead of an average taxpayer you get nothing at all?
  - saraid216 13y ago
    Obviously the opportunities afforded in your own country weren't sufficient and you should probably work on that rather than crippling children.
  - Gravityloss 13y ago
    It certainly gives lots of job opportunities - for example in the USA. With finnish mediocre salaries and high tax rates, americans think young couples are crazy to return here to raise their families. Yet they do. Certainly they're not returning directly because of a cardboard box. There are many places which extract some high value years from the workforce of some other country, for example I've heard that many educated german speaking young people go to work in Switzerland for a few years but ultimately return. It's a bit unclear to me who wins here.
yummyfajitas 13y ago
... but young parents are usually given quite a few months of vacation time and salary from the state, a sort of children allowance until a child is 18 years old (100EUR or so)... In the US we earn 30% more money than Finland (adjusted for cost of living, which is quite high in Finland), so we can just pay for these things with savings if we want to. Most of us choose not to, suggesting these benefits are worth less to us than money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...
- rlpb 13y ago
  > Most of us choose not to, suggesting these benefits are worth less to us than money. Or you could be suffering from a Tragedy of the Commons. Your American viewpoint may be preventing you all from pooling your money together and saving overall. Instead you all have to act as individuals, and in this case it is in your individual best interests to not spend the money, since you only get the saving if you all act together. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    I don't understand. The tragedy of the commons is about resource depletion in the absence of price signals. If I choose to work rather than take paternity leave, what resource am I depleting? Or more generally, what harmful externality am I creating?
    - rlpb 13y ago
      > The tragedy of the commons is about resource depletion in the absence of price signals. This is a narrow view. Think about it more generally, and you'll see that the same concept applies here.
    - anigbrowl 13y ago
      Ask your kids.
- 13y ago
anigbrowl 13y ago
So this definitely deserves a lot of attention as it makes young parents' lives quite easier. And I am not arguing against it, just that in the end someone has to pay for it. The beneficiaries likely return it and more through increased productivity. It's a lot easier to be productive when you don't have to worry too much about essentials.

by jan_g 13y ago

rlpb 13y ago

> And I am not arguing against it, just that in the end someone has to pay for it. What if it turned out that the baby pays for it because the improved average upbringing allows the baby to earn more and consequently pay more tax in absolute terms, though not in percentage terms? Would it be a cost to the taxpayer then?

jan_g 13y ago
As it happens, I am one of such tax payers, since I live in a country with similar arrangements for young parents as Finland. Also, by having two kids, I have been twice a beneficiary of this system. To repeat, I completely support such system, I just don't agree with ProcessBlue's statement, quote, ".. bit fuzzy but if I remember correctly the FREE tier of forming babby in Finland includes ...".
icebraining 13y ago
It depends. "Brain drain" is a real problem for many nations.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  Not the ones with advanced economies and reliable social safety nets, though. People tend to leave places that don't offer economic security and opportunity for those that do.
jrokisky 13y ago
I think this idea is often over looked. How much money/time is spent solving problems caused by overwork?
flagnog 13y ago
but you're assuming that this improves the upbringing.
- saraid216 13y ago
  If you're suggesting that health and parental attention does not contribute to a quality upbringing, I'd like to see some studies cited.
Domenic_S 13y ago
What if the improved upbringing opens up more opportunities for the child -- in other countries? So now instead of an average taxpayer you get nothing at all?
- saraid216 13y ago
  Obviously the opportunities afforded in your own country weren't sufficient and you should probably work on that rather than crippling children.
- Gravityloss 13y ago
  It certainly gives lots of job opportunities - for example in the USA. With finnish mediocre salaries and high tax rates, americans think young couples are crazy to return here to raise their families. Yet they do. Certainly they're not returning directly because of a cardboard box. There are many places which extract some high value years from the workforce of some other country, for example I've heard that many educated german speaking young people go to work in Switzerland for a few years but ultimately return. It's a bit unclear to me who wins here.

yummyfajitas 13y ago

... but young parents are usually given quite a few months of vacation time and salary from the state, a sort of children allowance until a child is 18 years old (100EUR or so)... In the US we earn 30% more money than Finland (adjusted for cost of living, which is quite high in Finland), so we can just pay for these things with savings if we want to. Most of us choose not to, suggesting these benefits are worth less to us than money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...

rlpb 13y ago
> Most of us choose not to, suggesting these benefits are worth less to us than money. Or you could be suffering from a Tragedy of the Commons. Your American viewpoint may be preventing you all from pooling your money together and saving overall. Instead you all have to act as individuals, and in this case it is in your individual best interests to not spend the money, since you only get the saving if you all act together. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  I don't understand. The tragedy of the commons is about resource depletion in the absence of price signals. If I choose to work rather than take paternity leave, what resource am I depleting? Or more generally, what harmful externality am I creating?
  - rlpb 13y ago
    > The tragedy of the commons is about resource depletion in the absence of price signals. This is a narrow view. Think about it more generally, and you'll see that the same concept applies here.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    Ask your kids.
13y ago

anigbrowl 13y ago

So this definitely deserves a lot of attention as it makes young parents' lives quite easier. And I am not arguing against it, just that in the end someone has to pay for it. The beneficiaries likely return it and more through increased productivity. It's a lot easier to be productive when you don't have to worry too much about essentials.