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The transition was always planned to take several years and I can't think of any major project which decided not to port to python 3. http://py3ksupport.appspo

by parfe 13y ago

The transition was always planned to take several years and I can't think of any major project which decided not to port to python 3. http://py3ksupport.appspot.com/ http://py3ksupport.appspot.com/ and https://python3wos.appspot.com/ https://python3wos.appspot.com/ both list package compatibility. What issues do you see with python2 to 3 transition?

thezilch 13y ago
To be fair, the Python 3 transition timer shouldn't have had its tick starting until more recent versions of Py3. This won't be true for all Python communities (eg. Mathematics / Research), but until the more sane implementation of bytes/strings/unicode, the transition for most web frameworks or protocols was a mess. However, from the later list, there are some really damning packages. For one, we're going to have transition off Twistd, which is much more than just an event loop. Py3 might not have enough advantage(s) to compel us to make that transition.
- parfe 13y ago
  http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/milestone/Python-3.x http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/milestone/Python-3.x So, just wait to migrate until twisted is ready?
  - thezilch 13y ago
    Honestly, I didn't check the dozen-plus packages pending update for us and then someone else cutting their teeth on it for a while, but Twisted was clearly marked as not being updated for Py3. But yes, clearly we're waiting; apparently Guido also wants to take a stab at the async batteries, which could help or hurt, if the Twisted contributors think they will be affected. To the point of the comment you first responded to, there is lot of issues not being "solved" with respect to network libs, their upgrading to Py3, and Py3 looking to step into that arena. In other words, there is no horizon for networking libs updating, and they may feel even less motivated if the Py3 crowd is saying, "don't worry about it, because we are going to standardize our way." Does the Py3 transition-clock only start then?
    - parfe 13y ago
      I'm not really sure what your issue is. You use twisted. Twisted is currently being updated to support python3. Gevent has a branch which passes tests for python 3.3: https://travis-ci.org/fantix/gevent/builds/3588293 https://travis-ci.org/fantix/gevent/builds/3588293 Is there some major library you are using that has no plans for python 3? I'm not actually seeing an issue with python 2 -> 3 transition which is what my original comment was asking about. I see a lot of negativity surrounding python 3 and talks of fracture, but no actual evidence of it.
randuser 13y ago
> I can't think of any major project which decided not to port to python 3 Most major projects have not actually switched to Python 3, that just support it using 2to3.
- takluyver 13y ago
  Actually, the trend is away from using 2to3 - it's now seen as preferable (and quite possible) to have one codebase which works on both 2 and 3. That's the route Django went for, and what Flask is doing. Numpy also switched from using 2to3 to supporting both from a common codebase.
  - randuser 13y ago
    So restricting yourself to a common subset of Python 2/3 and adding compatibility helpers in your code is the preferred approach now a days? I'm still not convinced about the whole Python 2 to 3 conversion being worth it (asides from the fact that not porting means your project is seen as not being actively maintained). It has led to added complexity in code so that it works on both versions, increased difficulty in packaging/distribution, having to test/debug on both versions, obsolescencing vast amounts of code that will never be ported, confusion among new users, untold man-hours being spent, ... I don't mean to be sound so down on Python 3, but it has caused me nothing but additional work and frustration. The supposed benefits of Python 3 are still years away.
    - takluyver 13y ago
      The common subset is most of the language, if you target 2.7 and 3.3. But yes, it has clearly caused extra work. But all the tools I use support Python 3, and I'm looking forward to when new users routinely go for 3.

by parfe 13y ago

thezilch 13y ago

To be fair, the Python 3 transition timer shouldn't have had its tick starting until more recent versions of Py3. This won't be true for all Python communities (eg. Mathematics / Research), but until the more sane implementation of bytes/strings/unicode, the transition for most web frameworks or protocols was a mess. However, from the later list, there are some really damning packages. For one, we're going to have transition off Twistd, which is much more than just an event loop. Py3 might not have enough advantage(s) to compel us to make that transition.

parfe 13y ago
http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/milestone/Python-3.x http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/milestone/Python-3.x So, just wait to migrate until twisted is ready?
- thezilch 13y ago
  Honestly, I didn't check the dozen-plus packages pending update for us and then someone else cutting their teeth on it for a while, but Twisted was clearly marked as not being updated for Py3. But yes, clearly we're waiting; apparently Guido also wants to take a stab at the async batteries, which could help or hurt, if the Twisted contributors think they will be affected. To the point of the comment you first responded to, there is lot of issues not being "solved" with respect to network libs, their upgrading to Py3, and Py3 looking to step into that arena. In other words, there is no horizon for networking libs updating, and they may feel even less motivated if the Py3 crowd is saying, "don't worry about it, because we are going to standardize our way." Does the Py3 transition-clock only start then?
  - parfe 13y ago
    I'm not really sure what your issue is. You use twisted. Twisted is currently being updated to support python3. Gevent has a branch which passes tests for python 3.3: https://travis-ci.org/fantix/gevent/builds/3588293 https://travis-ci.org/fantix/gevent/builds/3588293 Is there some major library you are using that has no plans for python 3? I'm not actually seeing an issue with python 2 -> 3 transition which is what my original comment was asking about. I see a lot of negativity surrounding python 3 and talks of fracture, but no actual evidence of it.

randuser 13y ago

> I can't think of any major project which decided not to port to python 3 Most major projects have not actually switched to Python 3, that just support it using 2to3.

takluyver 13y ago
Actually, the trend is away from using 2to3 - it's now seen as preferable (and quite possible) to have one codebase which works on both 2 and 3. That's the route Django went for, and what Flask is doing. Numpy also switched from using 2to3 to supporting both from a common codebase.
- randuser 13y ago
  So restricting yourself to a common subset of Python 2/3 and adding compatibility helpers in your code is the preferred approach now a days? I'm still not convinced about the whole Python 2 to 3 conversion being worth it (asides from the fact that not porting means your project is seen as not being actively maintained). It has led to added complexity in code so that it works on both versions, increased difficulty in packaging/distribution, having to test/debug on both versions, obsolescencing vast amounts of code that will never be ported, confusion among new users, untold man-hours being spent, ... I don't mean to be sound so down on Python 3, but it has caused me nothing but additional work and frustration. The supposed benefits of Python 3 are still years away.
  - takluyver 13y ago
    The common subset is most of the language, if you target 2.7 and 3.3. But yes, it has clearly caused extra work. But all the tools I use support Python 3, and I'm looking forward to when new users routinely go for 3.