6 ms·

Why Developers are Switching to Mac

41 points by raju 18y ago

adamc 18y ago
I read this and was underwhelmed.I'm not a Mac hater (I used one for over a decade), but nothing on the list seemed all that compelling. The Unix base and virtualization are the most compelling reasons, but the only reason virtualizing Macs on generic x86 boxes is problematic is OS X's license. Macs are nice machines. But if you have some other reason for using Windows (cost, compatibility, prior experience), I don't see a compelling case for switching.
anigbrowl 18y ago
More like '5 reasons why Mac is no longer impractical for developers'. I think the only absolute benefit it offers (which is driving some people to it but curiously isn't mentioned) is being able to develop iPhone/iPod apps. Not hating on the Mac, or anything - competition is a good thing. I just didn't care for the evangelista tone.
- TimMontague 18y ago
  The majority of this article seems to be the standard " OS X is Great!" talking points. In my opinion, the real reason that developers switch to OS X is so that they can develop software for apple products (or in the case of web development, develop websites that are OS X friendly).
  - Retric 18y ago
    IMO, The real reason "most" developers switched to mac has more to do with hosting websites on Linux/UNIX than anything else. A true UNIX command prompt is a powerful tool for dealing with large numbers of other UNIX computers and computer files. SSH + vi and suddenly your not just using your system but any computer your connecting to. The classic windows advantage of all those legacy systems stopped being relevant when many developers went back to notepad to update whatever new language they happened to be using today. PS: The article mentioned Terminal, but it forgot a lot of the other out of the box UNIX tools like SSH / diff.
    - boryas 18y ago
      On the topic of ssh/dealing with other computers, doesn't PuTTY do that pretty well on windows? Though I may be misunderstanding the advantage you're pointing out.
      - weaksauce 18y ago
        Putty is just a ssh client. Terminal is a shell that has access to ssh so you can access your own files or redirect ports easily through a remote ssh session(you can do this with putty but you must go through some hoops, ie. loopback device and setting up some ports in the putty config), etc.... I love the tabbed terminals that terminal provides. I can ssh into a work computer and have my local shell in another tab. Very seamless.
        rbanffy 18y ago
        That why I install Cygwin on every Windows box I touch.
  - dkarl 18y ago
    None of the "advantages" sounded so hot to me except the desktop effects, which I haven't bothered to enable in Ubuntu anyway. I use a Mac regularly, and the interface hasn't stopped irritating me. I hate the stoplight window controls, and I hate using Command instead of Control. I love Apple's hardware design, but the software feels... obtuse. And apathetic. Like it has a hard time paying attention to me and doesn't feel like being helpful anyway. (I bought my Mac for four reasons: to try iPhone development, to run Adobe Lightroom, because I love my iPhone, and because I wanted to see what the fuss was all about.) I'm positively drooling for Apple to release a tablet PC, though. Gimme gimme gimme please.... The multitouch stuff on the iMacs looks extremely cool, and you just know Apple will nail the tablet.
    - axod 18y ago
      There is absolutely no proven market for a 'tablet PC'. None whatsoever. Despite them being available for years in various forms.
      - dkarl 18y ago
        Because they're all terrible. They're all just small laptops with touch-sensitive screens and a few touch-screen software features. I've been itching for a tablet PC since at least 2003, but I've never bought one because I want one that doesn't suck. (Wait, I did buy a Nokia n800... sigh.) Apple's tablet won't suck, because Apple will 1) put a lot of work into creating a UI that works well with the form factor, and 2) have the guts to cut hardware features if that's what it takes to create a decent product. Funny, I sound like an Apple fanboy, even though I came here to express my irritation with OSX. Right now, if somebody gave me an iMac, my first impulse would be to install Linux on it, but you just have to look at the non-Apple phones released since the iPhone launched to see that Apple is on a completely different plane when it comes to smaller devices. I can't wait to see what they do with tablets, though perhaps it would hurt their prestige to release a novel product for a small market... they wouldn't be able to keep the hype within reasonable bounds, and expectations wouldn't be met.
        axod 18y ago
  - axod 18y ago
    Not at all. I think a lot would rather concentrate on building stuff, than trying to get their wifi to work in linux, or managing the latest updates that have broken gcc for some reason. For most, I think OS X is linux but without the maintenance.
    - jrockway 18y ago
      Not true, Apple breaks core features in minor security releases all the time. Most recently, they broke the system Perl. I don't use OS X for anything important anymore (only for watching videos on my TV), but back when I did use a Mac for work, things randomly broke for no reason all the time. (That doesn't even include the nightmare that is ports / fink / whatever, required to get modern versions of UNIX programs.) I use Debian unstable now, and it is a lot more reliable than OS X, for me anyway. Also, the whole getting wifi to work thing is mostly solved now. All the wireless cards are Intel, and Intel pours a lot of money into making them work really well with Linux. So you pop in your Ubuntu or Moblin CD, install, and right click the little icon, just like on any other OS. Basically, OS X sucks, Linux sucks, and Windows sucks. So there is no real reason to get super-excited about any of them -- they are all basically the same, with Linux marginally better in a few cases.
      - axod 18y ago
        >> "Apple breaks core features in minor security releases all the time." I've used OS X for 2 1/2 years now, and can't remember anything breaking :/ Before that I used linux on the desktop for maybe 8 years, and things broke every week. (Redhat, mandrake, gentoo, ubuntu)
        jrockway 18y ago
        (Redhat, mandrake, gentoo, ubuntu) Well there's your problem :) Try Debian stable, and let me know if it ever breaks. (Debian unstable definitely does break, but not very often, and it's usually easy to fix. It works for me.)
        18y ago
  - rbanffy 18y ago
    And those "OSX is great" talking points annoyed me a lot. http://www.dieblinkenlights.com/blog_en/five-reasons-why-this-developer-wont-switch-to-mac http://www.dieblinkenlights.com/blog_en/five-reasons-why-thi...
- stcredzero 18y ago
  Now we are seeing the clueless wannbe, 3rd-time around "Why Developers are Switching to Mac" articles. I think this is analogous to your mother joining Facebook and "When taxi drivers are giving stock tips, it's time to sell."
- GrandMasterBirt 18y ago
  Agreed. I tried, did not like. At least it is a viable solution. My only big reason is because mac is a *nix under the hood. So I get all the nice scripting benefits and never have to deal with the windows shell scripting for dev purposes. The hardware issue is a BIG fucking deal. I just got a mac mini at work for testing. ONLY ONE VIDEO PORT! So no dual screen. My PC? Oh no dual output? no problem a hundred bucks will solve that problem. To make it worse I can't upgrade my mini with a new card, gota get a new mini. (sorry just got = right before their new model was released) So yea mac is a pain still. I want a nice motherboard like a PC has, and a nice case like a PC has, and as powerful/weak as a mac mini, for the mac mini price. If I need a new card Ill buy one. But that's not available, gota get me the $2000 power mac.
_giu 18y ago
nice article. I have to admit, that after Apple and Intel "teamed" up I actually spent a thought on buying one, but my wallet was clearly against it since I'm a full time CS student. perhaps sometime in the future I'll buy a mac or I'll give OSx86 (http://www.osx86project.org/ http://www.osx86project.org/) a try.
twopoint718 18y ago
I've come to like my iBook G4 more since I've been running Debian on it. The advantage, which no fanboy can dispute is this, free upgrades. I got sick of this or that not working under 10.3 (no Java updates, for example) and so I thought "I'm just not shelling out $100+ for a new OS." I do appreciate that OSX is now an official UNIX, more power to 'em.
- TweedHeads 18y ago
  I also have an iBook G4, what are my choices to install Leopard for free? Torrents? I want it for iPhone development so linux is not an option.
  - jodrellblank 18y ago
    This isn't a Warez approval site so stealing it is not an option. Therefore your choices to install Leopard for free are: Find someone willing to fund your purchase of Leopard.
ralonso 18y ago
These are actually reasons why casual, non-developer users are switching to Macs, not developers or designers. The author describes how OSX is more open-source friendly, describing also how it comes bundled with developer tools, but I find it incredibly hard to believe that an actual developer will have a hard time finding a better tool online. The apps that come with the OS aren't exactly the best, and just about everyone who's planning to get some work done will find other tools wherever with better libraries and more support. The author also goes on and on about the UI. The simple taskbar in Windows and Linux is enough for me. Is it really necessary to have to view a thumbnail-esque to change to the window? Alt-Tab is enough. Security? Please! I'll say again: the developers I know are not stupid. Anyone in their right mind and with some knowledge of computers should know that clicking on an odd-looking ad, or downloading a strange attachment, or accessing a crazy porn site aren't sane things. A combination of Firefox and AdBlock/NoScript can make any OS safe for most people. Unless you have kids who have thumb drives and like to use your computer, contracting a virus that way shouldn't be a concern, either. The hardware-specific optimization is another problem. iPhone development is booming right now, but what about the rest? I'm willing to accept "the apple", but presenting bogus arguments isn't convincing.
- teej 18y ago
  > The author also goes on and on about the UI. The simple taskbar in Windows and Linux is enough for me. Is it really necessary to have to view a thumbnail-esque to change to the window? Alt-Tab is enough. I would argue that -this- is the reason why Mac is converting casual non-developer users. "Normal people" are complicated and the way they perceive files, windows, and apps interacting on a computer is varied and bizarre. Alt-tab is simply not enough for normal people to connect with a computer the way they expect it to work. Leopard has come really far in making visualization tools that are fast, easy to understand, and useful. With one keystroke, I can interact with my open windows in 5 different, task-focused ways. With two keystrokes, I gain access to even more.
erlanger 18y ago
Vista. Edit: OK, how am I wrong?
- softbuilder 18y ago
  You used a swear word on HN. :)
- dschobel 18y ago
  It's your argument, the burden of proof is on you. I would imagine that's why you got all the downvotes.
- jodrellblank 18y ago
  To borrow from The Big Lebowski, "You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an asshole". (You may have a point, but you've presented it in a trollish manner without explanation, justification, deviation, hesitation or repetition and it doesn't add to the discussion)
braindead_in 18y ago
What about brand appeal. Macs are also a status symbol. A way to make a statement about yourself, telling others that you are 'in' that exclusive club, you are cool and happening.
- KirinDave 18y ago
  I really think that this is an overstated effect for computers. For the iPhone and iPod maybe that's true. But for the laptops? I dunno. I know OSX is the #1 reason I prefer a mac at home. Being able to play like a native member of the Posix world while still having one of my favorite GUI APIs available is a big deal in my book.
  - dkarl 18y ago
    Opening up a laptop in a coffeeshop is like a peacock spreading its feathers.
    - olefoo 18y ago
      Oddly enough on the lekking[1] front; I've gotten more comments in the last few months when I pull my smallish (8.9in.) netbook out and use it, than I've seen anyone get for using a Mac in the past couple of years. 1. Lekking - A gathering of males engaged in competitive mating displays http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lekking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lekking
- HSO 18y ago
  I think this comment says more about you than a Mac about its owner. ;)
- 0xdefec8 18y ago
  Whether they'll admit it or not, that comment is probably the #1 issue holding back more hackers from switching to a Mac. Hackers :: Linux as Hipsters :: ObscureIndieRock. Switching to a Mac is like admitting you listen to Nickleback.
  - 18y ago
mdasen 18y ago
I'm not sure why a 'unified interface' is such a selling point. Does Windows not offer it? To be honest, I'm constantly finding that things on my Mac don't have a unified interface and that Apple keeps changing what they're looking to build. Both platforms (Mac and Win) tend to violate consistency on a case-by-case basis. Adium, one of the apps highlighted in the article as awesome (which it is), does not conform to the rest of the system's interface. Specifically, it uses white tabs rather than the new not-quite-metal look of 10.5. Likewise, iTunes has different scrollbars, Camino and OmniWeb don't use the new button-look for controls and use the old-style flat color images, sometimes input boxes have rounded corners and sometimes they don't, sometimes you can tab to select menus and sometimes you can't, find boxes are in every form imaginable. . . Consistency is great, but practicality beats purity. Both Apple and Microsoft have kept things decently consistent and violate their designs. Heck, with web pages throwing all sorts of interfaces at users, even the non-techies are getting used to understanding how different interfaces work. OS X is great, but I don't see it as being amazingly more consistent than other platforms.
1gor 18y ago
If you develop web based applications, Mac OS X has many limitations, strangely enough. Mac OS X is UNIX alright, but to pull most of libraries from MacPorts is the only sane way to manage dependencies. If you run Tiger (and see no reasons to upgrade) - then you are stuck with old Java release for ever. There is no way to upgrade Java other than buying Leopard, and then you are still at Apple's mercy for future upgrades. A simple task like doing 'sudo emacs' requires some custom shell scripting, since emacs that came with the operating system is old and useless. My initial excitement about Mac hardware is also dented after battery and graphic card both failed only after a year on my MacBook Pro. A web developer would be much more happy on Linux if he/she could live without eye candy.
- KirinDave 18y ago
  "Mac OS X is UNIX alright, but to pull most of libraries from MacPorts is the only sane way to manage dependencies." The only time this is the case is ImageMagik. Everything else is easily manageable by hand unless you insist of mixing it with the normal mac stuff. MacPorts is hardly necessary. It's unfortunate too, because Apple has one of the best non-package solutions for managing software installs in their .bundle and .app and .framework scheme. It's exquisitely simple and elegant, but everyone seems hesitant to adopt it because, well, because the UNIX way is to use a byzantine and barely functional package system and not incur manifest parsing penalties when apps are loaded.
  - warfangle 18y ago
    Last time I tried to pull ImageMagik from MacPorts it tried to install X. Huh?
    - allenbrunson 18y ago
      same thing happened to me. imagemagick has an image viewer app that requires x11. worse, i did indeed already have x11 installed, but imagemagick didn't like it for some reason, and failed to install. so i pulled down one of the binary distributions instead.
- 18y ago
pavelludiq 18y ago
I didn't read the list in detail, but was there realy anything on that list(except the hardware and the mac only apps) that i don't have in KDE4? Im seriously asking and im not really bashing apple this time(i sort of have a history with that).
halo 18y ago
I think this is an extremely poor article, particularly as this largely seems like just a random selection of vague talking points while giving anything concrete. I'm slightly frustrated that people think that this sort of article is worthy of being upvoted when it has little more substance than "Apple! Yay!". I think the real reasons developers, compared to all other users, are beginning to use Macs is down to 3 reasons: * Unix tools, software and terminal. Unix, and Unix software, is the bread and butter for a lot of developers, and getting them to work on Windows is pain and even then is regarded as a second-class citizen. People have been crying out for a truly good Unix workstation for years, but Apple are the first ones to gain enough traction to matter and truly create a good out-of-the-box user experience for it. * Universality. Mac OS X runs notoriously poorly under virtualization, so buying a Mac is the only simple choice if you wish to develop for all current platforms, something that is increasingly common, and run all the software available. * Fashion, particularly in areas where programming has overlapped design such as web development. People follow each other and their trends, and Mac OS X and the Macbook Pro has become a fashion among a certain type of developer.
- HSO 18y ago
  Have you even read the article? Your first two points are mentioned prominently.
  - halo 18y ago
    Yes, I have read the article. Yes, they are mentioned in the article... alongside another dozen Macintosh features which have little or no bearing on the reasons that developers specifically buy Macintosh machines compared to ordinary users. Unless, of course, you honestly think developers are buying Macs because of Quartz or Core Animation as much as they are Unix support, because they aren't savvy enough to know how to avoid spyware, or because they're looking for obviously much-needed help at the Genius Bar. A stopped clock is right twice a day.
mroman 18y ago
http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html
- sant0sk1 18y ago
  From the notes: "Y Combinator is (we hope) visited mostly by hackers. The proportions of OSes are: Windows 66.4%, Macintosh 18.8%, Linux 11.4%, and FreeBSD 1.5%. The Mac number is a big change from what it would have been five years ago." I'd love to see current numbers so we can spot the trend
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
  - electromagnetic 18y ago
    This is anecdotal, of course, but I've rarely used Mac in my lifetime. Windows always satisfied my needs, however now that PC gaming has essentially become pointlessly costly to me (Microsoft lost me with the whole DX10 only games, now they're readying to release D3D11, likely with its own swathe of D3D11 only games), because I can no longer buy a top of the line card and run it into the ground, because of Microsofts foolish bid to force people into Vista. Unfortunately I ended up with Vista on one of my computers, the system is so cumbersome it's repugnant to me. XP had it's faults, however they're all passable and the lack of elegance in the system was forgiven by its durability and compatibility between locals (School, Work, Home). Unfortunately for Microsoft, my next desktop is going to be an iMac. I'm fully aware there's going to be a learning curve when switching OS, however using Vista is frequently painful compared to XP. So for me, their's no longer a perceived barrier to entry to Mac, plus my wife is pushing for our next desktop to be a Mac... so I likely no longer have a choice but Mac. Same thing happened with the Xbox, when she found out the Elite was black and matched our TV she wouldn't let me get the cheaper one.
  - ratsbane 18y ago
    Agreed... those numbers were from March 2005. PG, can we have an update, please? Also, I was at the first Startup School at Harvard in 2005 (?). One of the speakers (PG?) noted the very high proportion of Macs in the room. Looking around I guessed about 80%. That is consistent with something PG said in that Mac essay - "If you want to know what ordinary people will be doing with computers in ten years, just walk around the CS department at a good university. Whatever they're doing, you'll be doing." I'm seeing more of my friends and coworkers using Mac, even DBAs who use MS SQL Server a lot.
ghostz00 18y ago
Both operating systems are comparable, each with their own pros and cons and neither OS has a killer feature nor a debilitating feature. Just find what works for you.
dryicerx 18y ago
Blah, they need to reword "Developers" with "Web Developers". A systems or applications developer won't switch to OSX for those reasons at all (for other reasons maybe).
yeahit 18y ago
I like the Macbook Air except for the glare type display. And im not sure how well it supports linux. Currently i think about buying one of the sony vgn-z notebooks. Any expriences with these?
- asciilifeform 18y ago
  There is an ~$50 filter which sticks to the Air's display, converting it into an approximately normal (non-glossy) one.
aphistic 18y ago
I picked up a 13" Macbook (unibody) at the end of last year because I was looking to do some iPhone/iPod Touch development. I'd always wanted to give OS X a go because of the underlying system and I've become a big fan of the OS. I'd have to say that the biggest thing holding me back from doing extensive development on the OS, though, is the lack of "Home" and "End" buttons (it's the small things, I guess). I know there's Command+Left/Right but it's just such a weird keystroke and if I want to select a line it's not End, Shift+Home. I have to press Command+Right, Shift+Command+Left and it just feels like a lot of unnecessary keystrokes. I also don't like the fact there's no built-in solution for mouse acceleration. I want it turned off but from what I've read in my searches there's no way to do it without running a separate program to do it for you.
- softbuilder 18y ago
  Text editing on the keyboard also drove me crazy for a while. You do get used to it. My lingering complaints: the insane placement of Cmd for Cut/Copy/Paste (talk about a Vulcan Nerve Pinch!) and the mental shift required when switching back and forth between the GUI and the shell. (Mainly that's remembering to switch to/from Control/Cmd).
  - ZeroGravitas 18y ago
    But that's the best bit! I love using Command-C to cut and paste throughout the OS including the terminal, rather than having to switch to Control-Shift-C for certain things as you do under Gnome, where forgetting means canceling something.
- FraaJad 18y ago
  Ctrl+A and Ctrl+E works as Home and End on mac. The same key combination as on Linux.
- octane 18y ago
  > is the lack of "Home" and "End" buttons Every single new Mac user has a "critical missing feature" that turns out not to be so missing after all once they actually read the docs about the literally thousands of keyboard shortcuts that they can call upon.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
octane 18y ago
I buy Macs because they work fine and I can afford them and I spent far too many years of my life dicking around with Linux on the desktop when it clearly belongs in the datacenter. I don't use Windows because it isn't Unix, not even if you use Cygwin and squint and tilt your head sideways.
- rbanffy 18y ago
  If you spent too many years dicking around with Linux you have been doing it the wrong way.
  - octane 18y ago
    > you have been doing it the wrong way. You ever stand behind a door because you were afraid the modelines in your XFree86 config file were going to blow up your monitor? Uphill both ways in the snow, etc.
    - rbanffy 18y ago
      There was no easy to use Unix in '96
      - octane 18y ago
        There still isn't. Unix is hard.
        rbanffy 18y ago
        No it's not. My 13-yo son uses a Linux-based phone, my wife uses a Mac and my mother uses Ubuntu. It's fair to say neither of them uses the terminal for anything (wife did sudo shutdown her Macbook when it refused to do it from the Apple menu), but Unix is not about terminals - it's an operating system ideal.
moe 18y ago
And here: Why many developers are not switching to mac. 1. Abysmal window manager, not replacable. Pixel waste, clumsy (long list here) 2. Mandatory Click-to-Focus and Click-Raise. Showstopper. 3. No home/end keys on apple laptops and other wierd layout choices. 4. Nasty BSD gang-rape under the hood. Yes, OSX has it's own "windows registry". 5. Idiotic shareware culture that makes you pay for the smallest things. $10 for a sane Macbook trackpad driver that should be in the OS in first place. 6. Inconsistent keyboard shortcuts, meta-key nonsense, Apple+Q. 7. Menus only on context-sensitive titlebar, sub-problem of #2 8. Single mouse button idiocy. 9. Finder. 10. Equivalent PC hardware can be had for 60% of the apple price
- herval 18y ago
  not trying to be picky, but... 2. you can scroll in windows without clicking, afaik 7. isn't that actually 'pixel saving'? 8. last time I checked, iMac's mouse had 3 buttons (and a squishable)... 9. pathfinder 10. hackintosh
  - moe 18y ago
    2. Try typing in an obscured terminal window without raising it. 7. Yes, kind of. But saving in the wrong place because you can't quickly perform an operation on an obscured window and be sure focus is restored to the one you had before. (Or can you? I recall intermittent behaviour and am quite sure that at least keyboard focus is lost) 8. Last time I checked the laptops all had one button. 9. $39.95 10. Reportedly too much hassle (hardware issues).
- diN0bot 18y ago
  you say tomato i say tomato. the things you've listed aren't deal breakers for me. i've developed for a number of years now on all three systems and so far mac laptops take the cake easy. that's just me situation, though. also, -1 for use preformatted text that ruins this whole discussion for everyone (without a wide browser window).
  - blhack 18y ago
lurkinggrue 18y ago
I do despise animation in user interfaces. When I click a window I want it to just appear and not spend 3 seconds animating. I don't like OSX but I am not going to deny it's power or appeal.
comatose_kid 18y ago
Although I haven't read any of the 56 responses here, I'm probably safe in assuming: 1) No new insight into this earth-shattering issue will arise, even from the mighty minds on HN. 2) Even if 1) were wrong, it wouldn't change anyone's mind anyways.

41 points by raju 18y ago

adamc 18y ago

I read this and was underwhelmed.I'm not a Mac hater (I used one for over a decade), but nothing on the list seemed all that compelling. The Unix base and virtualization are the most compelling reasons, but the only reason virtualizing Macs on generic x86 boxes is problematic is OS X's license. Macs are nice machines. But if you have some other reason for using Windows (cost, compatibility, prior experience), I don't see a compelling case for switching.

anigbrowl 18y ago

More like '5 reasons why Mac is no longer impractical for developers'. I think the only absolute benefit it offers (which is driving some people to it but curiously isn't mentioned) is being able to develop iPhone/iPod apps. Not hating on the Mac, or anything - competition is a good thing. I just didn't care for the evangelista tone.

TimMontague 18y ago
The majority of this article seems to be the standard " OS X is Great!" talking points. In my opinion, the real reason that developers switch to OS X is so that they can develop software for apple products (or in the case of web development, develop websites that are OS X friendly).
- Retric 18y ago
  IMO, The real reason "most" developers switched to mac has more to do with hosting websites on Linux/UNIX than anything else. A true UNIX command prompt is a powerful tool for dealing with large numbers of other UNIX computers and computer files. SSH + vi and suddenly your not just using your system but any computer your connecting to. The classic windows advantage of all those legacy systems stopped being relevant when many developers went back to notepad to update whatever new language they happened to be using today. PS: The article mentioned Terminal, but it forgot a lot of the other out of the box UNIX tools like SSH / diff.
  - boryas 18y ago
    On the topic of ssh/dealing with other computers, doesn't PuTTY do that pretty well on windows? Though I may be misunderstanding the advantage you're pointing out.
    - weaksauce 18y ago
      Putty is just a ssh client. Terminal is a shell that has access to ssh so you can access your own files or redirect ports easily through a remote ssh session(you can do this with putty but you must go through some hoops, ie. loopback device and setting up some ports in the putty config), etc.... I love the tabbed terminals that terminal provides. I can ssh into a work computer and have my local shell in another tab. Very seamless.
      - rbanffy 18y ago
        That why I install Cygwin on every Windows box I touch.
- dkarl 18y ago
  None of the "advantages" sounded so hot to me except the desktop effects, which I haven't bothered to enable in Ubuntu anyway. I use a Mac regularly, and the interface hasn't stopped irritating me. I hate the stoplight window controls, and I hate using Command instead of Control. I love Apple's hardware design, but the software feels... obtuse. And apathetic. Like it has a hard time paying attention to me and doesn't feel like being helpful anyway. (I bought my Mac for four reasons: to try iPhone development, to run Adobe Lightroom, because I love my iPhone, and because I wanted to see what the fuss was all about.) I'm positively drooling for Apple to release a tablet PC, though. Gimme gimme gimme please.... The multitouch stuff on the iMacs looks extremely cool, and you just know Apple will nail the tablet.
  - axod 18y ago
    There is absolutely no proven market for a 'tablet PC'. None whatsoever. Despite them being available for years in various forms.
    - dkarl 18y ago
      Because they're all terrible. They're all just small laptops with touch-sensitive screens and a few touch-screen software features. I've been itching for a tablet PC since at least 2003, but I've never bought one because I want one that doesn't suck. (Wait, I did buy a Nokia n800... sigh.) Apple's tablet won't suck, because Apple will 1) put a lot of work into creating a UI that works well with the form factor, and 2) have the guts to cut hardware features if that's what it takes to create a decent product. Funny, I sound like an Apple fanboy, even though I came here to express my irritation with OSX. Right now, if somebody gave me an iMac, my first impulse would be to install Linux on it, but you just have to look at the non-Apple phones released since the iPhone launched to see that Apple is on a completely different plane when it comes to smaller devices. I can't wait to see what they do with tablets, though perhaps it would hurt their prestige to release a novel product for a small market... they wouldn't be able to keep the hype within reasonable bounds, and expectations wouldn't be met.
      - axod 18y ago
- axod 18y ago
  Not at all. I think a lot would rather concentrate on building stuff, than trying to get their wifi to work in linux, or managing the latest updates that have broken gcc for some reason. For most, I think OS X is linux but without the maintenance.
  - jrockway 18y ago
    Not true, Apple breaks core features in minor security releases all the time. Most recently, they broke the system Perl. I don't use OS X for anything important anymore (only for watching videos on my TV), but back when I did use a Mac for work, things randomly broke for no reason all the time. (That doesn't even include the nightmare that is ports / fink / whatever, required to get modern versions of UNIX programs.) I use Debian unstable now, and it is a lot more reliable than OS X, for me anyway. Also, the whole getting wifi to work thing is mostly solved now. All the wireless cards are Intel, and Intel pours a lot of money into making them work really well with Linux. So you pop in your Ubuntu or Moblin CD, install, and right click the little icon, just like on any other OS. Basically, OS X sucks, Linux sucks, and Windows sucks. So there is no real reason to get super-excited about any of them -- they are all basically the same, with Linux marginally better in a few cases.
    - axod 18y ago
      >> "Apple breaks core features in minor security releases all the time." I've used OS X for 2 1/2 years now, and can't remember anything breaking :/ Before that I used linux on the desktop for maybe 8 years, and things broke every week. (Redhat, mandrake, gentoo, ubuntu)
      - jrockway 18y ago
        (Redhat, mandrake, gentoo, ubuntu) Well there's your problem :) Try Debian stable, and let me know if it ever breaks. (Debian unstable definitely does break, but not very often, and it's usually easy to fix. It works for me.)
        18y ago
- rbanffy 18y ago
  And those "OSX is great" talking points annoyed me a lot. http://www.dieblinkenlights.com/blog_en/five-reasons-why-this-developer-wont-switch-to-mac http://www.dieblinkenlights.com/blog_en/five-reasons-why-thi...
stcredzero 18y ago
Now we are seeing the clueless wannbe, 3rd-time around "Why Developers are Switching to Mac" articles. I think this is analogous to your mother joining Facebook and "When taxi drivers are giving stock tips, it's time to sell."
GrandMasterBirt 18y ago
Agreed. I tried, did not like. At least it is a viable solution. My only big reason is because mac is a *nix under the hood. So I get all the nice scripting benefits and never have to deal with the windows shell scripting for dev purposes. The hardware issue is a BIG fucking deal. I just got a mac mini at work for testing. ONLY ONE VIDEO PORT! So no dual screen. My PC? Oh no dual output? no problem a hundred bucks will solve that problem. To make it worse I can't upgrade my mini with a new card, gota get a new mini. (sorry just got = right before their new model was released) So yea mac is a pain still. I want a nice motherboard like a PC has, and a nice case like a PC has, and as powerful/weak as a mac mini, for the mac mini price. If I need a new card Ill buy one. But that's not available, gota get me the $2000 power mac.

_giu 18y ago

nice article. I have to admit, that after Apple and Intel "teamed" up I actually spent a thought on buying one, but my wallet was clearly against it since I'm a full time CS student. perhaps sometime in the future I'll buy a mac or I'll give OSx86 (http://www.osx86project.org/ http://www.osx86project.org/) a try.

twopoint718 18y ago

I've come to like my iBook G4 more since I've been running Debian on it. The advantage, which no fanboy can dispute is this, free upgrades. I got sick of this or that not working under 10.3 (no Java updates, for example) and so I thought "I'm just not shelling out $100+ for a new OS." I do appreciate that OSX is now an official UNIX, more power to 'em.

TweedHeads 18y ago
I also have an iBook G4, what are my choices to install Leopard for free? Torrents? I want it for iPhone development so linux is not an option.
- jodrellblank 18y ago
  This isn't a Warez approval site so stealing it is not an option. Therefore your choices to install Leopard for free are: Find someone willing to fund your purchase of Leopard.

ralonso 18y ago

These are actually reasons why casual, non-developer users are switching to Macs, not developers or designers. The author describes how OSX is more open-source friendly, describing also how it comes bundled with developer tools, but I find it incredibly hard to believe that an actual developer will have a hard time finding a better tool online. The apps that come with the OS aren't exactly the best, and just about everyone who's planning to get some work done will find other tools wherever with better libraries and more support. The author also goes on and on about the UI. The simple taskbar in Windows and Linux is enough for me. Is it really necessary to have to view a thumbnail-esque to change to the window? Alt-Tab is enough. Security? Please! I'll say again: the developers I know are not stupid. Anyone in their right mind and with some knowledge of computers should know that clicking on an odd-looking ad, or downloading a strange attachment, or accessing a crazy porn site aren't sane things. A combination of Firefox and AdBlock/NoScript can make any OS safe for most people. Unless you have kids who have thumb drives and like to use your computer, contracting a virus that way shouldn't be a concern, either. The hardware-specific optimization is another problem. iPhone development is booming right now, but what about the rest? I'm willing to accept "the apple", but presenting bogus arguments isn't convincing.

teej 18y ago
> The author also goes on and on about the UI. The simple taskbar in Windows and Linux is enough for me. Is it really necessary to have to view a thumbnail-esque to change to the window? Alt-Tab is enough. I would argue that -this- is the reason why Mac is converting casual non-developer users. "Normal people" are complicated and the way they perceive files, windows, and apps interacting on a computer is varied and bizarre. Alt-tab is simply not enough for normal people to connect with a computer the way they expect it to work. Leopard has come really far in making visualization tools that are fast, easy to understand, and useful. With one keystroke, I can interact with my open windows in 5 different, task-focused ways. With two keystrokes, I gain access to even more.

erlanger 18y ago

Vista. Edit: OK, how am I wrong?

softbuilder 18y ago
You used a swear word on HN. :)
dschobel 18y ago
It's your argument, the burden of proof is on you. I would imagine that's why you got all the downvotes.
jodrellblank 18y ago
To borrow from The Big Lebowski, "You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an asshole". (You may have a point, but you've presented it in a trollish manner without explanation, justification, deviation, hesitation or repetition and it doesn't add to the discussion)

braindead_in 18y ago

What about brand appeal. Macs are also a status symbol. A way to make a statement about yourself, telling others that you are 'in' that exclusive club, you are cool and happening.

KirinDave 18y ago
I really think that this is an overstated effect for computers. For the iPhone and iPod maybe that's true. But for the laptops? I dunno. I know OSX is the #1 reason I prefer a mac at home. Being able to play like a native member of the Posix world while still having one of my favorite GUI APIs available is a big deal in my book.
- dkarl 18y ago
  Opening up a laptop in a coffeeshop is like a peacock spreading its feathers.
  - olefoo 18y ago
    Oddly enough on the lekking[1] front; I've gotten more comments in the last few months when I pull my smallish (8.9in.) netbook out and use it, than I've seen anyone get for using a Mac in the past couple of years. 1. Lekking - A gathering of males engaged in competitive mating displays http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lekking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lekking
HSO 18y ago
I think this comment says more about you than a Mac about its owner. ;)
0xdefec8 18y ago
Whether they'll admit it or not, that comment is probably the #1 issue holding back more hackers from switching to a Mac. Hackers :: Linux as Hipsters :: ObscureIndieRock. Switching to a Mac is like admitting you listen to Nickleback.
- 18y ago

mdasen 18y ago

I'm not sure why a 'unified interface' is such a selling point. Does Windows not offer it? To be honest, I'm constantly finding that things on my Mac don't have a unified interface and that Apple keeps changing what they're looking to build. Both platforms (Mac and Win) tend to violate consistency on a case-by-case basis. Adium, one of the apps highlighted in the article as awesome (which it is), does not conform to the rest of the system's interface. Specifically, it uses white tabs rather than the new not-quite-metal look of 10.5. Likewise, iTunes has different scrollbars, Camino and OmniWeb don't use the new button-look for controls and use the old-style flat color images, sometimes input boxes have rounded corners and sometimes they don't, sometimes you can tab to select menus and sometimes you can't, find boxes are in every form imaginable. . . Consistency is great, but practicality beats purity. Both Apple and Microsoft have kept things decently consistent and violate their designs. Heck, with web pages throwing all sorts of interfaces at users, even the non-techies are getting used to understanding how different interfaces work. OS X is great, but I don't see it as being amazingly more consistent than other platforms.

1gor 18y ago

If you develop web based applications, Mac OS X has many limitations, strangely enough. Mac OS X is UNIX alright, but to pull most of libraries from MacPorts is the only sane way to manage dependencies. If you run Tiger (and see no reasons to upgrade) - then you are stuck with old Java release for ever. There is no way to upgrade Java other than buying Leopard, and then you are still at Apple's mercy for future upgrades. A simple task like doing 'sudo emacs' requires some custom shell scripting, since emacs that came with the operating system is old and useless. My initial excitement about Mac hardware is also dented after battery and graphic card both failed only after a year on my MacBook Pro. A web developer would be much more happy on Linux if he/she could live without eye candy.

KirinDave 18y ago
"Mac OS X is UNIX alright, but to pull most of libraries from MacPorts is the only sane way to manage dependencies." The only time this is the case is ImageMagik. Everything else is easily manageable by hand unless you insist of mixing it with the normal mac stuff. MacPorts is hardly necessary. It's unfortunate too, because Apple has one of the best non-package solutions for managing software installs in their .bundle and .app and .framework scheme. It's exquisitely simple and elegant, but everyone seems hesitant to adopt it because, well, because the UNIX way is to use a byzantine and barely functional package system and not incur manifest parsing penalties when apps are loaded.
- warfangle 18y ago
  Last time I tried to pull ImageMagik from MacPorts it tried to install X. Huh?
  - allenbrunson 18y ago
    same thing happened to me. imagemagick has an image viewer app that requires x11. worse, i did indeed already have x11 installed, but imagemagick didn't like it for some reason, and failed to install. so i pulled down one of the binary distributions instead.
18y ago

pavelludiq 18y ago

I didn't read the list in detail, but was there realy anything on that list(except the hardware and the mac only apps) that i don't have in KDE4? Im seriously asking and im not really bashing apple this time(i sort of have a history with that).

halo 18y ago

I think this is an extremely poor article, particularly as this largely seems like just a random selection of vague talking points while giving anything concrete. I'm slightly frustrated that people think that this sort of article is worthy of being upvoted when it has little more substance than "Apple! Yay!". I think the real reasons developers, compared to all other users, are beginning to use Macs is down to 3 reasons: * Unix tools, software and terminal. Unix, and Unix software, is the bread and butter for a lot of developers, and getting them to work on Windows is pain and even then is regarded as a second-class citizen. People have been crying out for a truly good Unix workstation for years, but Apple are the first ones to gain enough traction to matter and truly create a good out-of-the-box user experience for it. * Universality. Mac OS X runs notoriously poorly under virtualization, so buying a Mac is the only simple choice if you wish to develop for all current platforms, something that is increasingly common, and run all the software available. * Fashion, particularly in areas where programming has overlapped design such as web development. People follow each other and their trends, and Mac OS X and the Macbook Pro has become a fashion among a certain type of developer.

HSO 18y ago
Have you even read the article? Your first two points are mentioned prominently.
- halo 18y ago
  Yes, I have read the article. Yes, they are mentioned in the article... alongside another dozen Macintosh features which have little or no bearing on the reasons that developers specifically buy Macintosh machines compared to ordinary users. Unless, of course, you honestly think developers are buying Macs because of Quartz or Core Animation as much as they are Unix support, because they aren't savvy enough to know how to avoid spyware, or because they're looking for obviously much-needed help at the Genius Bar. A stopped clock is right twice a day.

mroman 18y ago

http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html

sant0sk1 18y ago
From the notes: "Y Combinator is (we hope) visited mostly by hackers. The proportions of OSes are: Windows 66.4%, Macintosh 18.8%, Linux 11.4%, and FreeBSD 1.5%. The Mac number is a big change from what it would have been five years ago." I'd love to see current numbers so we can spot the trend
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- electromagnetic 18y ago
  This is anecdotal, of course, but I've rarely used Mac in my lifetime. Windows always satisfied my needs, however now that PC gaming has essentially become pointlessly costly to me (Microsoft lost me with the whole DX10 only games, now they're readying to release D3D11, likely with its own swathe of D3D11 only games), because I can no longer buy a top of the line card and run it into the ground, because of Microsofts foolish bid to force people into Vista. Unfortunately I ended up with Vista on one of my computers, the system is so cumbersome it's repugnant to me. XP had it's faults, however they're all passable and the lack of elegance in the system was forgiven by its durability and compatibility between locals (School, Work, Home). Unfortunately for Microsoft, my next desktop is going to be an iMac. I'm fully aware there's going to be a learning curve when switching OS, however using Vista is frequently painful compared to XP. So for me, their's no longer a perceived barrier to entry to Mac, plus my wife is pushing for our next desktop to be a Mac... so I likely no longer have a choice but Mac. Same thing happened with the Xbox, when she found out the Elite was black and matched our TV she wouldn't let me get the cheaper one.
- ratsbane 18y ago
  Agreed... those numbers were from March 2005. PG, can we have an update, please? Also, I was at the first Startup School at Harvard in 2005 (?). One of the speakers (PG?) noted the very high proportion of Macs in the room. Looking around I guessed about 80%. That is consistent with something PG said in that Mac essay - "If you want to know what ordinary people will be doing with computers in ten years, just walk around the CS department at a good university. Whatever they're doing, you'll be doing." I'm seeing more of my friends and coworkers using Mac, even DBAs who use MS SQL Server a lot.

ghostz00 18y ago

Both operating systems are comparable, each with their own pros and cons and neither OS has a killer feature nor a debilitating feature. Just find what works for you.

dryicerx 18y ago

Blah, they need to reword "Developers" with "Web Developers". A systems or applications developer won't switch to OSX for those reasons at all (for other reasons maybe).

yeahit 18y ago

I like the Macbook Air except for the glare type display. And im not sure how well it supports linux. Currently i think about buying one of the sony vgn-z notebooks. Any expriences with these?

asciilifeform 18y ago
There is an ~$50 filter which sticks to the Air's display, converting it into an approximately normal (non-glossy) one.

aphistic 18y ago

I picked up a 13" Macbook (unibody) at the end of last year because I was looking to do some iPhone/iPod Touch development. I'd always wanted to give OS X a go because of the underlying system and I've become a big fan of the OS. I'd have to say that the biggest thing holding me back from doing extensive development on the OS, though, is the lack of "Home" and "End" buttons (it's the small things, I guess). I know there's Command+Left/Right but it's just such a weird keystroke and if I want to select a line it's not End, Shift+Home. I have to press Command+Right, Shift+Command+Left and it just feels like a lot of unnecessary keystrokes. I also don't like the fact there's no built-in solution for mouse acceleration. I want it turned off but from what I've read in my searches there's no way to do it without running a separate program to do it for you.

softbuilder 18y ago
Text editing on the keyboard also drove me crazy for a while. You do get used to it. My lingering complaints: the insane placement of Cmd for Cut/Copy/Paste (talk about a Vulcan Nerve Pinch!) and the mental shift required when switching back and forth between the GUI and the shell. (Mainly that's remembering to switch to/from Control/Cmd).
- ZeroGravitas 18y ago
  But that's the best bit! I love using Command-C to cut and paste throughout the OS including the terminal, rather than having to switch to Control-Shift-C for certain things as you do under Gnome, where forgetting means canceling something.
FraaJad 18y ago
Ctrl+A and Ctrl+E works as Home and End on mac. The same key combination as on Linux.
octane 18y ago
> is the lack of "Home" and "End" buttons Every single new Mac user has a "critical missing feature" that turns out not to be so missing after all once they actually read the docs about the literally thousands of keyboard shortcuts that they can call upon.

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

octane 18y ago

I buy Macs because they work fine and I can afford them and I spent far too many years of my life dicking around with Linux on the desktop when it clearly belongs in the datacenter. I don't use Windows because it isn't Unix, not even if you use Cygwin and squint and tilt your head sideways.

rbanffy 18y ago
If you spent too many years dicking around with Linux you have been doing it the wrong way.
- octane 18y ago
  > you have been doing it the wrong way. You ever stand behind a door because you were afraid the modelines in your XFree86 config file were going to blow up your monitor? Uphill both ways in the snow, etc.
  - rbanffy 18y ago
    There was no easy to use Unix in '96
    - octane 18y ago
      There still isn't. Unix is hard.
      - rbanffy 18y ago
        No it's not. My 13-yo son uses a Linux-based phone, my wife uses a Mac and my mother uses Ubuntu. It's fair to say neither of them uses the terminal for anything (wife did sudo shutdown her Macbook when it refused to do it from the Apple menu), but Unix is not about terminals - it's an operating system ideal.

moe 18y ago

And here: Why many developers are not switching to mac. 1. Abysmal window manager, not replacable. Pixel waste, clumsy (long list here) 2. Mandatory Click-to-Focus and Click-Raise. Showstopper. 3. No home/end keys on apple laptops and other wierd layout choices. 4. Nasty BSD gang-rape under the hood. Yes, OSX has it's own "windows registry". 5. Idiotic shareware culture that makes you pay for the smallest things. $10 for a sane Macbook trackpad driver that should be in the OS in first place. 6. Inconsistent keyboard shortcuts, meta-key nonsense, Apple+Q. 7. Menus only on context-sensitive titlebar, sub-problem of #2 8. Single mouse button idiocy. 9. Finder. 10. Equivalent PC hardware can be had for 60% of the apple price

herval 18y ago
not trying to be picky, but... 2. you can scroll in windows without clicking, afaik 7. isn't that actually 'pixel saving'? 8. last time I checked, iMac's mouse had 3 buttons (and a squishable)... 9. pathfinder 10. hackintosh
- moe 18y ago
  2. Try typing in an obscured terminal window without raising it. 7. Yes, kind of. But saving in the wrong place because you can't quickly perform an operation on an obscured window and be sure focus is restored to the one you had before. (Or can you? I recall intermittent behaviour and am quite sure that at least keyboard focus is lost) 8. Last time I checked the laptops all had one button. 9. $39.95 10. Reportedly too much hassle (hardware issues).
diN0bot 18y ago
you say tomato i say tomato. the things you've listed aren't deal breakers for me. i've developed for a number of years now on all three systems and so far mac laptops take the cake easy. that's just me situation, though. also, -1 for use preformatted text that ruins this whole discussion for everyone (without a wide browser window).
- blhack 18y ago

lurkinggrue 18y ago

I do despise animation in user interfaces. When I click a window I want it to just appear and not spend 3 seconds animating. I don't like OSX but I am not going to deny it's power or appeal.

comatose_kid 18y ago

Although I haven't read any of the 56 responses here, I'm probably safe in assuming: 1) No new insight into this earth-shattering issue will arise, even from the mighty minds on HN. 2) Even if 1) were wrong, it wouldn't change anyone's mind anyways.