7 ms·

I got my ACL replaced in Argentina and the cost including rehab was about U$S 3000 having one of the best insurance companies (about 120 U$S a month). If I want

by chudi 13y ago

I got my ACL replaced in Argentina and the cost including rehab was about U$S 3000 having one of the best insurance companies (about 120 U$S a month). If I wanted to use the public care, it could probably cost almost nothing. It always amazed me that in the US the health of a person is not a right and if you get hurt doing anything you have to pay huge fees.

pyre 13y ago
That's because in Libertarian Utopia everyone of importance will be independently wealthy, and those who aren't, deserve to be trampled by the others. /sarcasm
- jacoblyles 13y ago
  Libertarians have been complaining about the USA's complicated health bureaucracy for decades. Hell, they've written dozens of books about it. It doesn't take a genius to find perverse incentives in US medical pricing schemes. But don't let me get in the way of your 30 seconds of hate...
  - pyre 13y ago
    I've met plenty of people whose political views on health care were along the lines of: Person 1: "You should pay for your own care" Person 2: "What if you are poor and can't?" Person 1: "Sucks to be you." With the possible addendum of: Person 1: "But charity organizations will cover the costs for those that can't pay, because then I can choose of my own will to put money towards the cause." Person 2: "What if not enough people donate?" Person 1: "Well, it sucks to be poor." [I'll note that "sucks to be you" as an answer could probably be translated as, "I have not thought out my position that far, and I don't like you challenging my views, so I'll give you a short and curt answer."]
    - rexreed 13y ago
      Can the issue of who pays for healthcare be adequately separated from the issue of its cost? I think so -- given how wide the disparity in health COSTS (put aside the payer) are between not only countries, but even counties in the US [1]. It would be great if we can talk about the origin of these health costs without getting entangled into who should be paying them. But maybe that's an impossible task. The Libertarian-in-Chief Ron Paul himself a Physician who claims that the exhorbitant costs in health care are a more recent phenomenon. He quotes how much his costs were to do house-visits (remarkably small), and compares that with the ballooning in costs more recently. While one can argue that Libertarianism is a Utopic view, the rapidly escalating prices of healthcare are not something that is espoused by Libertarian philosophy. I.e. Low health costs and individual responsibility for health paying are not incompatible. Then again, neither are low health costs and universal health coverage. Right now, we have the worst of both worlds: high health costs and individual responsibility for payment. [1] http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/hospital-procedure-costs-map-2.png http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/hospital-procedure-cost...
      - pyre 13y ago
        Can (some of) the ballooning costs be attributed to the costs / time investment in medical school? When Ron Paul went to medical school how much did it cost (adjusted for inflation)? How much more knowledge are doctors expected to have now than then?
        rexreed 13y ago
        Maybe, but not any significant part. As evidenced by this post, only a small portion of the costs are attributable to the work performed by the surgeon. The majority of costs are allocated to facility costs (whose increases in price are not related to tuition costs) and equipment. Indeed, if there was such a direct correlation between the two, the easiest way to control healthcare costs would be to reduce doctoral school tuition rates. Clearly, this is not a viable solution here because the two are not directly correlated. Now, it is true that Tuition Costs have risen at a much higher rate since 1960 than Health Care costs on a percentage basis compared to inflation [1] [2] [3], but in aggregate the actual health care costs on a per-individual basis dwarf total tuition costs as part of household income [4]. [1] https://lh3.ggpht.com/-dqm5PIPoC58/Ti8HKy2jjrI/AAAAAAAAPgU/Wm3iJROU5KQ/s1600/college.jpg https://lh3.ggpht.com/-dqm5PIPoC58/Ti8HKy2jjrI/AAAAAAAAPgU/W... [2] http://chartingtheeconomy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/healthcare309_28214_image012.gif http://chartingtheeconomy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/hea... [3] http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2011/08/aw-chart-college-tuition-vs-other-price-indices-2/large.png http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2011/08/aw-chart-c... [4] http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d775519ccd1d57115010000/chart.gif http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d775519ccd1d571150...
  - csense 13y ago
    Today with the US-based insurance system, there's usually at least one whole employee at every doctor's office whose only job it is to figure out who pays what, and do all the related phone calls and paperwork. For example talking to every patient's insurance company and turning medical procedures into ID numbers. If the doctor sends you to get lab work, the lab has its own person that fills that role. If the doctor sends you to a specialist, ditto. Of course the insurance companies have their own hordes of employees who write all the rules of who pays what under what circumstances, keep the books of all the patients' deductibles and all the providers' bills, etc. None of these employees does anything economically productive. They just move money around. Obamacare requires that people buy health insurance, which protects this bureaucracy with a legal mandate to purchase their services, and creates more bureaucracy, on the government side, to administer the law.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
sp332 13y ago
How can you guarantee the health of a person? Doesn't that incentivize risky activities? If someone else will pay to stitch you up if you get injured, or cover your drugs if you get sick, or keep you going in your old age if you make terrible long-term lifestyle choices: wouldn't that skew the overall population toward cheaper, more convenient, or more fun decisions at the expense of the state?
- chudi 13y ago
  I think that getting hurt or sick has enough pain or tragedy for itself and thats why people dont want to feel it. If you hurt yourself and someone patchs you up, its not the same, my reconstructed knee will never feel the same as the other. I think that you pose people that whant to benefit as much as they can from the state, and I think that I know noneone that does that, at least in health care, nobody wants to go the hospital
  - Jach 13y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchausen_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchausen_syndrome Now whether the people with this syndrome are sizable enough to make it unacceptable to just bear their cost is another story...
- jon-wood 13y ago
  I live in the UK, so all my medical costs are covered by the state. However, I still don't go base jumping. Even if the costs are covered, I still don't want to spend six months in traction after I break my back because the parachute didn't open. Similarly almost all the people I know either don't smoke, or want to stop smoking, because even if you can do it free of charge lung cancer just isn't much fun.
  - smalltalk 13y ago
    You mean your medical costs are covered by taxes you pay and taxes other people (and corporations) in the UK pay and the costs of medical research and development that might benefit you are paid by people in the US.

by chudi 13y ago

pyre 13y ago

That's because in Libertarian Utopia everyone of importance will be independently wealthy, and those who aren't, deserve to be trampled by the others. /sarcasm

jacoblyles 13y ago
Libertarians have been complaining about the USA's complicated health bureaucracy for decades. Hell, they've written dozens of books about it. It doesn't take a genius to find perverse incentives in US medical pricing schemes. But don't let me get in the way of your 30 seconds of hate...
- pyre 13y ago
  I've met plenty of people whose political views on health care were along the lines of: Person 1: "You should pay for your own care" Person 2: "What if you are poor and can't?" Person 1: "Sucks to be you." With the possible addendum of: Person 1: "But charity organizations will cover the costs for those that can't pay, because then I can choose of my own will to put money towards the cause." Person 2: "What if not enough people donate?" Person 1: "Well, it sucks to be poor." [I'll note that "sucks to be you" as an answer could probably be translated as, "I have not thought out my position that far, and I don't like you challenging my views, so I'll give you a short and curt answer."]
  - rexreed 13y ago
    Can the issue of who pays for healthcare be adequately separated from the issue of its cost? I think so -- given how wide the disparity in health COSTS (put aside the payer) are between not only countries, but even counties in the US [1]. It would be great if we can talk about the origin of these health costs without getting entangled into who should be paying them. But maybe that's an impossible task. The Libertarian-in-Chief Ron Paul himself a Physician who claims that the exhorbitant costs in health care are a more recent phenomenon. He quotes how much his costs were to do house-visits (remarkably small), and compares that with the ballooning in costs more recently. While one can argue that Libertarianism is a Utopic view, the rapidly escalating prices of healthcare are not something that is espoused by Libertarian philosophy. I.e. Low health costs and individual responsibility for health paying are not incompatible. Then again, neither are low health costs and universal health coverage. Right now, we have the worst of both worlds: high health costs and individual responsibility for payment. [1] http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/hospital-procedure-costs-map-2.png http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/hospital-procedure-cost...
    - pyre 13y ago
      Can (some of) the ballooning costs be attributed to the costs / time investment in medical school? When Ron Paul went to medical school how much did it cost (adjusted for inflation)? How much more knowledge are doctors expected to have now than then?
      - rexreed 13y ago
        Maybe, but not any significant part. As evidenced by this post, only a small portion of the costs are attributable to the work performed by the surgeon. The majority of costs are allocated to facility costs (whose increases in price are not related to tuition costs) and equipment. Indeed, if there was such a direct correlation between the two, the easiest way to control healthcare costs would be to reduce doctoral school tuition rates. Clearly, this is not a viable solution here because the two are not directly correlated. Now, it is true that Tuition Costs have risen at a much higher rate since 1960 than Health Care costs on a percentage basis compared to inflation [1] [2] [3], but in aggregate the actual health care costs on a per-individual basis dwarf total tuition costs as part of household income [4]. [1] https://lh3.ggpht.com/-dqm5PIPoC58/Ti8HKy2jjrI/AAAAAAAAPgU/Wm3iJROU5KQ/s1600/college.jpg https://lh3.ggpht.com/-dqm5PIPoC58/Ti8HKy2jjrI/AAAAAAAAPgU/W... [2] http://chartingtheeconomy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/healthcare309_28214_image012.gif http://chartingtheeconomy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/hea... [3] http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2011/08/aw-chart-college-tuition-vs-other-price-indices-2/large.png http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2011/08/aw-chart-c... [4] http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d775519ccd1d57115010000/chart.gif http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d775519ccd1d571150...
- csense 13y ago
  Today with the US-based insurance system, there's usually at least one whole employee at every doctor's office whose only job it is to figure out who pays what, and do all the related phone calls and paperwork. For example talking to every patient's insurance company and turning medical procedures into ID numbers. If the doctor sends you to get lab work, the lab has its own person that fills that role. If the doctor sends you to a specialist, ditto. Of course the insurance companies have their own hordes of employees who write all the rules of who pays what under what circumstances, keep the books of all the patients' deductibles and all the providers' bills, etc. None of these employees does anything economically productive. They just move money around. Obamacare requires that people buy health insurance, which protects this bureaucracy with a legal mandate to purchase their services, and creates more bureaucracy, on the government side, to administer the law.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

sp332 13y ago

How can you guarantee the health of a person? Doesn't that incentivize risky activities? If someone else will pay to stitch you up if you get injured, or cover your drugs if you get sick, or keep you going in your old age if you make terrible long-term lifestyle choices: wouldn't that skew the overall population toward cheaper, more convenient, or more fun decisions at the expense of the state?

chudi 13y ago
I think that getting hurt or sick has enough pain or tragedy for itself and thats why people dont want to feel it. If you hurt yourself and someone patchs you up, its not the same, my reconstructed knee will never feel the same as the other. I think that you pose people that whant to benefit as much as they can from the state, and I think that I know noneone that does that, at least in health care, nobody wants to go the hospital
- Jach 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchausen_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchausen_syndrome Now whether the people with this syndrome are sizable enough to make it unacceptable to just bear their cost is another story...
jon-wood 13y ago
I live in the UK, so all my medical costs are covered by the state. However, I still don't go base jumping. Even if the costs are covered, I still don't want to spend six months in traction after I break my back because the parachute didn't open. Similarly almost all the people I know either don't smoke, or want to stop smoking, because even if you can do it free of charge lung cancer just isn't much fun.
- smalltalk 13y ago
  You mean your medical costs are covered by taxes you pay and taxes other people (and corporations) in the UK pay and the costs of medical research and development that might benefit you are paid by people in the US.