6 ms·

New college grads: Don’t sell your time for a living

59 points by andrew_null 13y ago

derrida 13y ago
TL;DR: Jobs bad. 1. Make things. 2. Make sure people want it. 3. Keep trying this for a long time.
- cheald 13y ago
  0. Have a bunch of money so you can fail for a long time while you don't know what you're doing, rather than learning it while gainfully employed.
darrellsilver 13y ago
After 10 years in the workforce it seems to me the most important thing to focus on is getting a job that'll give them exposure to new things. Our students at http://www.thinkful.com http://www.thinkful.com often find themselves a couple years out of school, languishing in their 1st jobs since college, wishing and yearning for more. Unfortunately, incredibly talented people take the safest job they're offered because they have crazy college debt. A couple years later they're totally unfulfilled and want more. Planning how to "not sell your time for a living" while in college (or before) is just as important as not being compelled into a "steady" job at the point in your life when you should be exploring new things.
romeonova 13y ago
Good use of Onion News article.
rayiner 13y ago
What a bunch of fluff. Most jobs involve "making things" it's just that the opportunities for leverage are low. Being an employee versus an entrepreneur isn't "selling your time" versus "making things" it's about how much leverage you can utilize in the things you make.
- sp332 13y ago
  But the business model isn't making things, it's butt-in-seat time.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Nobody pays anyone to keep a seat warm... For a counter-factual to the article, consider a Subway franchise. The people who really make things in that business are the sandwich line workers getting paid $8/hour. Everything else is in support of that core productive function. So why don't you want to be a "maker" at Subway? Because while the sandwich line workers are the ones making things, it's the store owner that has the leverage--he gets other people to make things for him. You want to be the guy with the leverage, not (necessarily) the guy making things (though sometimes, if what you make is valued/rare enough, you have a lot of leverage).
    - smacktoward 13y ago
      So why don't you want to be a "maker" at Subway? Because while the sandwich line workers are the ones making things, it's the store owner that has the leverage--he gets other people to make things for him. This also perfectly describes the relationship between startup founders and VCs.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
      Amazing what controlling the means of production can do for you.
      - mindcrime 13y ago
        Amazing what controlling the means of production can do for you. Well, if others want to control the means of production, let them go out and take out loans, burn through their life savings, and crib money from friends, family and fools, to take a chance on a business that might or might not succeed, possibly leaving them broke, penniless and destitute. Let them figure out how to promote and market the business, design all the processes needed to make the business work, and develop the ulcers and headaches that come from stressing over the possibility that the business might fail and you might have to lay off your entire workforce, putting good people... people that you hired, trained, trusted, and worked, sweated, laughed and bled alongside.. out of work. Because "owning the means of production" IS a total cakewalk after all. Just retreat to your robber baron mansion, burn a few thousand dollar bills for heat, and march down to the (store|factory|plant|refinery|etc) every few days and kick the shit out of the lazy workers who are probably stealing from the company anyway. Oh, wait, did I say "march"? I mean, "be driven by your chauffeur in your Rolls Royce Silver Ghost". Because all business owners have chauffeurs and a Rolls Royce.
adamio 13y ago
Better advice would be to know what you're time is worth, and don't sell it for less - even to yourself.
aridiculous 13y ago
One's life != a business
drfurly 13y ago
I'm graduating college with a BS is software eng next year so this grabs my attention. Programmers of the real world: Is it this bad? I can't imagine that it can be. I enjoy what I do. I even often enjoy frustrating programming assignments. Can a job really be that bad? I'm inclined to say that this attitude that we (programmers) are better than regularly jobs is a little too forward thinking.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  No, it's really not this bad. I "sell my time" for a living and I frakkin' love it. I work with really talented people I respect and love, working on interesting products that I like, with little to no bullshittery. It's not like this everywhere, but these spots in the industry exist, and if you're halfway decent at what you do, they will want you also. As rayiner said also, entrepreneurship is also "selling your time" - you're just trying to sell it at a very high price with no guarantee that anyone will end up paying you for that time. There is also no guarantee in entrepreneurship that you'll spend a substantial portion of your time doing things you enjoy. A lot of startup life is thankless toil. Putting together a startup is a lot more than writing some code and slapping together some designs - as a founder you will go neck-deep in territory you do not enjoy, whether that's sales, marketing, business development, design, or something else.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    > There is also no guarantee in entrepreneurship that you'll spend a substantial portion of your time doing things you enjoy. If your start-up turns into a successful business with real customers, you almost certainly won't. At the start up I worked for, I watched as the founder quickly became too important to do much if any technical work. Can't very well spend time sitting and futzing with algorithms when you're busy making PowerPoint presentations and poring over contracts.
- dwb 13y ago
  No, jobs can be great, and if you're anything like me you greatly value the security, built-in social nature, team spirit, and the sorting out of all the boring crap (accounts, admin, even cleaning) by other people. I could probably make a bunch more money as a contractor, but money isn't everything by a long shot. You do have to pick the right company, though. Do your research and follow your instincts about the culture. Good luck!
qdpb 13y ago
Don’t sell your time for a living. Starve.
cuttooth 13y ago
"At least the traditional version of a job, in which you do something you sorta hate, from 9-5p, and are paid for your time to just grit your teeth and do it. Let’s call this the “sell your time” version of a personal business model: You sell your time to an employer, and they pay you for that time." This is called being an adult and getting a job, much like the other 99% of the adult population. Some of us just end up being happier with what we do than others. Some people don't care about what they do at all as long as their non-work life makes them happy.
minimaxir 13y ago
As a recent college grad (Carnegie Mellon University Class of 2012), I take issue with the "working on a startup is more meaningful than working a 9-5 corp job" stance. It's not about skills, it's about security and certainty, especially in this job market (which still isn't great), even if you have the technical skills and education to do basically whatever you want. There's no harm for a college grad to wait a few years before doing a startup once they've built up savings and a positive reputation. It's worth noting that very few Computer Science students my year created a startup relative to the amount of CS students who instead decided to work for a large startup/Microsoft/Google/Amazon. http://www.cmu.edu/career/salaries-and-destinations/2012-survey/pdfs-one-pagers/2012_SCS.pdf http://www.cmu.edu/career/salaries-and-destinations/2012-sur...
- darrellsilver 13y ago
  Agreed. Just after college is the time in your life when you're freest to take the biggest risks. However, way too many people are saddled with crazy college debt that the only logical option is to "play it safe." An unfortunate dynamic. At http://www.thinkful.com/ http://www.thinkful.com/ I've encouraged our interns to consider how much savings or debt they'll have upon graduation. It's something they basically never consider, and immediately when they do all sorts of priorities change about their spending habits, goals, etc. Well worth the exercise.
volandovengo 13y ago
Could somebody please explain what andrew chen does? Is he an entrepreneur?
- duggieawesome 13y ago
  He apparently trains "growth hackers."
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    Ah, so he's the proverbial shovel seller in the gold rush.
rm999 13y ago
I know I'm taking this article out of context... so who is it targeted towards? Some background would likely help this article tremendously because as-is it's obviously ridiculous. Most people out of college are not in a position to forego a job to vaguely "build something". The issues are numerous: money, knowledge, ability, a realistic world-view, etc. I'd suggest the opposite to most smart engineering grads: sell your time (i.e. get a 9 to 5 job) and invest the money, knowledge, and free time you get into learning how to build things.
- spiek 13y ago
  My reaction to this article: "That'd be nice, but I live in New York". That's why that Onion headline is so brilliant: you HAVE to do the thing you love on nights and weekends until you get good enough at it to attempt to do it full time. In the meantime, you have to pay your rent, you have to buy your food and have a social life and a girlfriend and all those other things that make life pleasant.
7Figures2Commas 13y ago
Yes, new college graduates, please do not be seduced by the idea that you can be employed by a company that will pay you to learn how to do something of value. Instead, take everything you have (inexperience, limited funds, lack of domain expertise, etc.) and invest it in making "something." If all else fails, which it most likely will, join a startup, ideally one filled with a bunch of other young people trying to learn how to make "something" too.
- volandovengo 13y ago
  lol. well put. i do think there is wisdom in joining a startup run by veterans out of college. at least then you get the experience in running a startup. if you join a big company, you get educated in the skills needed to succeed at a big company, which unfortunately are very different to the skills needed to doing something on your own. i do like his quote though that it will take about 10,000 hours to get good at anything...
- joonix 13y ago
  No, just Make Something, it will Take Ten Thousand Hours, but remember, Startups. Study those who have Made Something, and then copy them by Making Something of Your Own.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
macspoofing 13y ago
Some people don't view work as an end goal of their life.
adamz123 13y ago
I think the "don't work, but start a business" mantra is overdone. Starting a business IS working -- probably much harder than you'd ever work at a 9-5 if you plan to be successful. Even people that are passionate about what they do can burn out. There is no "quick fix" to having a job and it certainly isn't "just follow your passion and start a company."
jarrett 13y ago
Whenever I hear this, I think: Is this just meant to be advice for the elite, gifted few? Or does the author mean that nearly everyone should eschew wage labor? If the latter, then who will do all the only-mildly-interesting things in our world? There is a need for people who are willing to get work done. And by work, I mean stuff that's not fun or glamorous, but still important. Yes, you can hand-wave all that away with some vague claims about technology making drudge work obsolete. Except it hasn't yet, and we don't know if it ever will. Besides that, not everyone has the right attributes for self-employment. I suspect that much of what makes traditional employment painful is bad coworkers/bosses. Do we expect these same people to be successful running their own enterprises?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
JDGM 13y ago
There is a reason people sell their time: they need money to live. Advising new graduates (most of whom will have student debt) to eschew a "job" and go it alone "making something" is dubious advice. A professional-level graduate career gives a ground to hit running after college, and in terms of steps in the direction of one day managing one's own affairs it provides experience, connections, and a chance to build up savings. Going straight from school to no job and making "an app, blog, table, YouTube channel, or video tutorial" is very unlikely to lead to equivalent success, and don't let survivorship bias trick you otherwise. The people I admire are those who have worked professionally but even in cases of soul-destroying office politics, bureaucracy, and mismanagement, have never given up on their "plan", slowly moving in the direction they want and eventually being in a position (e.g. financially, domain-experience, network) to break free and do it their way. In the case of many HNers, I observe a movement from salaried employee to consultant with the freedom to work on their own stuff to...well a tonne of interesting things. I think that kind of approach is much more likely to succeed than the extremism and anti-"job" mentality of the submitted article.
hkmurakami 13y ago
do what you're interested in. don't do boring things for the money, provided you have alternatives that let you live comfortably and afford interesting opportunities. it took getting hit by a car going 50mph for me to really have this sink in. We shouldn't need a potential near death experience to convince us to abandon our vanity and achievement chasing and do what we really want to do.
gordaco 13y ago
If working has taught me something, it's that every job is "selling your time for a living", including entrepreneurship of any kind (selling your time to your clients, not your boss, but it's not different), and unfortunately that's a necessary evil if you want luxuries like a steady amount of food, clothing or shelter. Also, that every job is a day job, or becomes such after not many months. If you don't think so, you're either deluding yourself, a very boring person without a life, or extremely lucky (and remember, no matter how much do you believe this last option represents you, it's still extremely unlikely). Also: don't fall into the "be passionate" trap. Be passionate about your life, and don't conflate your work with your life. Keep your job out of your life, and if possible, consider yourself unemployed from 5pm to 9am.

59 points by andrew_null 13y ago

derrida 13y ago

TL;DR: Jobs bad. 1. Make things. 2. Make sure people want it. 3. Keep trying this for a long time.

cheald 13y ago
0. Have a bunch of money so you can fail for a long time while you don't know what you're doing, rather than learning it while gainfully employed.

darrellsilver 13y ago

After 10 years in the workforce it seems to me the most important thing to focus on is getting a job that'll give them exposure to new things. Our students at http://www.thinkful.com http://www.thinkful.com often find themselves a couple years out of school, languishing in their 1st jobs since college, wishing and yearning for more. Unfortunately, incredibly talented people take the safest job they're offered because they have crazy college debt. A couple years later they're totally unfulfilled and want more. Planning how to "not sell your time for a living" while in college (or before) is just as important as not being compelled into a "steady" job at the point in your life when you should be exploring new things.

romeonova 13y ago

Good use of Onion News article.

rayiner 13y ago

What a bunch of fluff. Most jobs involve "making things" it's just that the opportunities for leverage are low. Being an employee versus an entrepreneur isn't "selling your time" versus "making things" it's about how much leverage you can utilize in the things you make.

sp332 13y ago
But the business model isn't making things, it's butt-in-seat time.
- rayiner 13y ago
  Nobody pays anyone to keep a seat warm... For a counter-factual to the article, consider a Subway franchise. The people who really make things in that business are the sandwich line workers getting paid $8/hour. Everything else is in support of that core productive function. So why don't you want to be a "maker" at Subway? Because while the sandwich line workers are the ones making things, it's the store owner that has the leverage--he gets other people to make things for him. You want to be the guy with the leverage, not (necessarily) the guy making things (though sometimes, if what you make is valued/rare enough, you have a lot of leverage).
  - smacktoward 13y ago
    So why don't you want to be a "maker" at Subway? Because while the sandwich line workers are the ones making things, it's the store owner that has the leverage--he gets other people to make things for him. This also perfectly describes the relationship between startup founders and VCs.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
    Amazing what controlling the means of production can do for you.
    - mindcrime 13y ago
      Amazing what controlling the means of production can do for you. Well, if others want to control the means of production, let them go out and take out loans, burn through their life savings, and crib money from friends, family and fools, to take a chance on a business that might or might not succeed, possibly leaving them broke, penniless and destitute. Let them figure out how to promote and market the business, design all the processes needed to make the business work, and develop the ulcers and headaches that come from stressing over the possibility that the business might fail and you might have to lay off your entire workforce, putting good people... people that you hired, trained, trusted, and worked, sweated, laughed and bled alongside.. out of work. Because "owning the means of production" IS a total cakewalk after all. Just retreat to your robber baron mansion, burn a few thousand dollar bills for heat, and march down to the (store|factory|plant|refinery|etc) every few days and kick the shit out of the lazy workers who are probably stealing from the company anyway. Oh, wait, did I say "march"? I mean, "be driven by your chauffeur in your Rolls Royce Silver Ghost". Because all business owners have chauffeurs and a Rolls Royce.

adamio 13y ago

Better advice would be to know what you're time is worth, and don't sell it for less - even to yourself.

aridiculous 13y ago

One's life != a business

drfurly 13y ago

I'm graduating college with a BS is software eng next year so this grabs my attention. Programmers of the real world: Is it this bad? I can't imagine that it can be. I enjoy what I do. I even often enjoy frustrating programming assignments. Can a job really be that bad? I'm inclined to say that this attitude that we (programmers) are better than regularly jobs is a little too forward thinking.

potatolicious 13y ago
No, it's really not this bad. I "sell my time" for a living and I frakkin' love it. I work with really talented people I respect and love, working on interesting products that I like, with little to no bullshittery. It's not like this everywhere, but these spots in the industry exist, and if you're halfway decent at what you do, they will want you also. As rayiner said also, entrepreneurship is also "selling your time" - you're just trying to sell it at a very high price with no guarantee that anyone will end up paying you for that time. There is also no guarantee in entrepreneurship that you'll spend a substantial portion of your time doing things you enjoy. A lot of startup life is thankless toil. Putting together a startup is a lot more than writing some code and slapping together some designs - as a founder you will go neck-deep in territory you do not enjoy, whether that's sales, marketing, business development, design, or something else.
- rayiner 13y ago
  > There is also no guarantee in entrepreneurship that you'll spend a substantial portion of your time doing things you enjoy. If your start-up turns into a successful business with real customers, you almost certainly won't. At the start up I worked for, I watched as the founder quickly became too important to do much if any technical work. Can't very well spend time sitting and futzing with algorithms when you're busy making PowerPoint presentations and poring over contracts.
dwb 13y ago
No, jobs can be great, and if you're anything like me you greatly value the security, built-in social nature, team spirit, and the sorting out of all the boring crap (accounts, admin, even cleaning) by other people. I could probably make a bunch more money as a contractor, but money isn't everything by a long shot. You do have to pick the right company, though. Do your research and follow your instincts about the culture. Good luck!

qdpb 13y ago

Don’t sell your time for a living. Starve.

cuttooth 13y ago

"At least the traditional version of a job, in which you do something you sorta hate, from 9-5p, and are paid for your time to just grit your teeth and do it. Let’s call this the “sell your time” version of a personal business model: You sell your time to an employer, and they pay you for that time." This is called being an adult and getting a job, much like the other 99% of the adult population. Some of us just end up being happier with what we do than others. Some people don't care about what they do at all as long as their non-work life makes them happy.

minimaxir 13y ago

As a recent college grad (Carnegie Mellon University Class of 2012), I take issue with the "working on a startup is more meaningful than working a 9-5 corp job" stance. It's not about skills, it's about security and certainty, especially in this job market (which still isn't great), even if you have the technical skills and education to do basically whatever you want. There's no harm for a college grad to wait a few years before doing a startup once they've built up savings and a positive reputation. It's worth noting that very few Computer Science students my year created a startup relative to the amount of CS students who instead decided to work for a large startup/Microsoft/Google/Amazon. http://www.cmu.edu/career/salaries-and-destinations/2012-survey/pdfs-one-pagers/2012_SCS.pdf http://www.cmu.edu/career/salaries-and-destinations/2012-sur...

darrellsilver 13y ago
Agreed. Just after college is the time in your life when you're freest to take the biggest risks. However, way too many people are saddled with crazy college debt that the only logical option is to "play it safe." An unfortunate dynamic. At http://www.thinkful.com/ http://www.thinkful.com/ I've encouraged our interns to consider how much savings or debt they'll have upon graduation. It's something they basically never consider, and immediately when they do all sorts of priorities change about their spending habits, goals, etc. Well worth the exercise.

volandovengo 13y ago

Could somebody please explain what andrew chen does? Is he an entrepreneur?

duggieawesome 13y ago
He apparently trains "growth hackers."
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Ah, so he's the proverbial shovel seller in the gold rush.

rm999 13y ago

I know I'm taking this article out of context... so who is it targeted towards? Some background would likely help this article tremendously because as-is it's obviously ridiculous. Most people out of college are not in a position to forego a job to vaguely "build something". The issues are numerous: money, knowledge, ability, a realistic world-view, etc. I'd suggest the opposite to most smart engineering grads: sell your time (i.e. get a 9 to 5 job) and invest the money, knowledge, and free time you get into learning how to build things.

spiek 13y ago
My reaction to this article: "That'd be nice, but I live in New York". That's why that Onion headline is so brilliant: you HAVE to do the thing you love on nights and weekends until you get good enough at it to attempt to do it full time. In the meantime, you have to pay your rent, you have to buy your food and have a social life and a girlfriend and all those other things that make life pleasant.

7Figures2Commas 13y ago

Yes, new college graduates, please do not be seduced by the idea that you can be employed by a company that will pay you to learn how to do something of value. Instead, take everything you have (inexperience, limited funds, lack of domain expertise, etc.) and invest it in making "something." If all else fails, which it most likely will, join a startup, ideally one filled with a bunch of other young people trying to learn how to make "something" too.

volandovengo 13y ago
lol. well put. i do think there is wisdom in joining a startup run by veterans out of college. at least then you get the experience in running a startup. if you join a big company, you get educated in the skills needed to succeed at a big company, which unfortunately are very different to the skills needed to doing something on your own. i do like his quote though that it will take about 10,000 hours to get good at anything...
joonix 13y ago
No, just Make Something, it will Take Ten Thousand Hours, but remember, Startups. Study those who have Made Something, and then copy them by Making Something of Your Own.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

macspoofing 13y ago

Some people don't view work as an end goal of their life.

adamz123 13y ago

I think the "don't work, but start a business" mantra is overdone. Starting a business IS working -- probably much harder than you'd ever work at a 9-5 if you plan to be successful. Even people that are passionate about what they do can burn out. There is no "quick fix" to having a job and it certainly isn't "just follow your passion and start a company."

jarrett 13y ago

Whenever I hear this, I think: Is this just meant to be advice for the elite, gifted few? Or does the author mean that nearly everyone should eschew wage labor? If the latter, then who will do all the only-mildly-interesting things in our world? There is a need for people who are willing to get work done. And by work, I mean stuff that's not fun or glamorous, but still important. Yes, you can hand-wave all that away with some vague claims about technology making drudge work obsolete. Except it hasn't yet, and we don't know if it ever will. Besides that, not everyone has the right attributes for self-employment. I suspect that much of what makes traditional employment painful is bad coworkers/bosses. Do we expect these same people to be successful running their own enterprises?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

JDGM 13y ago

There is a reason people sell their time: they need money to live. Advising new graduates (most of whom will have student debt) to eschew a "job" and go it alone "making something" is dubious advice. A professional-level graduate career gives a ground to hit running after college, and in terms of steps in the direction of one day managing one's own affairs it provides experience, connections, and a chance to build up savings. Going straight from school to no job and making "an app, blog, table, YouTube channel, or video tutorial" is very unlikely to lead to equivalent success, and don't let survivorship bias trick you otherwise. The people I admire are those who have worked professionally but even in cases of soul-destroying office politics, bureaucracy, and mismanagement, have never given up on their "plan", slowly moving in the direction they want and eventually being in a position (e.g. financially, domain-experience, network) to break free and do it their way. In the case of many HNers, I observe a movement from salaried employee to consultant with the freedom to work on their own stuff to...well a tonne of interesting things. I think that kind of approach is much more likely to succeed than the extremism and anti-"job" mentality of the submitted article.

hkmurakami 13y ago

do what you're interested in. don't do boring things for the money, provided you have alternatives that let you live comfortably and afford interesting opportunities. it took getting hit by a car going 50mph for me to really have this sink in. We shouldn't need a potential near death experience to convince us to abandon our vanity and achievement chasing and do what we really want to do.

gordaco 13y ago

If working has taught me something, it's that every job is "selling your time for a living", including entrepreneurship of any kind (selling your time to your clients, not your boss, but it's not different), and unfortunately that's a necessary evil if you want luxuries like a steady amount of food, clothing or shelter. Also, that every job is a day job, or becomes such after not many months. If you don't think so, you're either deluding yourself, a very boring person without a life, or extremely lucky (and remember, no matter how much do you believe this last option represents you, it's still extremely unlikely). Also: don't fall into the "be passionate" trap. Be passionate about your life, and don't conflate your work with your life. Keep your job out of your life, and if possible, consider yourself unemployed from 5pm to 9am.