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This is ridiculous. I'm at work so I can't do a point by point refutation but I will later. It's obvious that you know more than the average person on this sub

This is ridiculous. I'm at work so I can't do a point by point refutation but I will later. It's obvious that you know more than the average person on this subject, but you're falling into the trap of thinking that just because you know some things, you have a good (or even the best) picture of what is happening. First of all, the main significant thing about these protests is that it was the FIRST large scale protest to not be organized by any political group(s) and instead is grassroots. People just started messaging each other and walking outside of their houses to support others. A day or two later, parties finally started organizing but the protest is nonpartisan. I have never otherwise seen a TKP (left-communist party) and MHP (ultra-nationalist right) flags flying together EVER! There are also people from Laz, soccer teams, Kurds, workers unions, LGBT groups. I am getting daily updates from almost all of my friends who are taking part in the protests. The idea that it was "subverted", or is fake astroturfing is absurd. Read this: http://technosociology.org/?p=1255 http://technosociology.org/?p=1255 Second, yes, Erdogan's leadership resulted in economic reform (the costs of this is another discussion altogether, but no one can deny the gains). But this has nothing to do with his authoritarian ruling style. Under his tenure, Turkey has had the great (!) achievements of dropping to 54th in the corruption index (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/9967221.asp http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/9967221.asp) and "noticable problems" the press freedom index with 33 journalists currently jailed (http://en.rsf.org/report-turkey,141.html http://en.rsf.org/report-turkey,141.html). Or political prisoners (http://www.fidh.org/International-delegation-finds http://www.fidh.org/International-delegation-finds). Third, you need to learn a lot more about election politics and demographics in Turkey. Democracy is not elected dictatorship. But Erdogan has made it clear that this is his interpretation of it, many times. P.S. There are so many videos (with context) / images of clear and unincited police brutality that I want to puke when I hear you deny them. I've been compiling a list. More on this later too. http://i.imgur.com/GdstgFu.jpg http://i.imgur.com/GdstgFu.jpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHFe7vK1hyw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHFe7vK1hyw https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151648526182702 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151648526182702 http://i.imgur.com/ovsvTkg.jpg http://i.imgur.com/ovsvTkg.jpg https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=139362532926023 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=139362532926023 http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-981250 http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-981250 https://twitter.com/kurttberna/status/340734448146472960/photo/1 https://twitter.com/kurttberna/status/340734448146472960/pho... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDnrcsrhxGg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDnrcsrhxGg http://i.imgur.com/tP6EIXI.jpg http://i.imgur.com/tP6EIXI.jpg http://i.imgur.com/n1VWYdI.jpg http://i.imgur.com/n1VWYdI.jpg https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=207394002740909&set=vb.126576117362399&type=2&theater https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=207394002740909&set... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=248465715278711&set=a.248125328646083.1073741828.247993528659263&type=1 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=248465715278711&s... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=654306227917990&set=vb.215491745136618&type=2&theater http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=654306227917990&set=...

kposehn 13y ago
@cup has said nothing ridiculous, he just made a point: there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. You're closer to the grassroots portion of it apparently, but what you are probably missing is larger context - other groups pushing into it trying to use the protests for their own ends. I'm no fan of the AKP (Erdogan's party) but there is indeed more going on here. The closer you are to a tree, the harder it is to see the forest.
- subsystem 13y ago
  It wasn't a very good point when followed by speculation of his/hers own.
- corkill 13y ago
  "but what you are probably missing is larger context" I would disagree, there is no larger context than the erosion of democracy. That is what the protests are about. The people on the streets are not trying to push any agenda except democracy. Other groups trying to further their own agenda is inevitable in any system and not related (this is obviously a much more favorable story line for the current government to tell the world). I cannot tell if the top comment knows this, but the comment about blowing up on social media suggest he doesn't understand it is the only way to communicate and get the message out. A) there is a media blackout, no television station reporting this inside Turkey. B) Turkcell the nations largest communications provider was pressured to disrupt communications in Istanbul (which they did) Point being social media is the only way to communicate about things like this, as the press are either in prison already or afraid. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3103432560875 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3103432560875 (police attacking random people including a woman for no reason). Here is the democratic leaders response “There is now a menace which is called Twitter,” Erdogan said. “The best examples of lies can be found there. To me, social media is the worst menace to society.” (you just can't make this stuff up). http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2013/06/02/Erdogan-rejects-dictator-claims.html http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2013/06/02/Erdoga...
- Jun8 13y ago
  Can you explain why you think so, or provide examples of "other groups pushing into it trying to use the protests for their own ends"? Up to know this has been largely backed by people who normally don't get involved with government protests.

kposehn 13y ago

@cup has said nothing ridiculous, he just made a point: there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. You're closer to the grassroots portion of it apparently, but what you are probably missing is larger context - other groups pushing into it trying to use the protests for their own ends. I'm no fan of the AKP (Erdogan's party) but there is indeed more going on here. The closer you are to a tree, the harder it is to see the forest.

subsystem 13y ago
It wasn't a very good point when followed by speculation of his/hers own.
corkill 13y ago
"but what you are probably missing is larger context" I would disagree, there is no larger context than the erosion of democracy. That is what the protests are about. The people on the streets are not trying to push any agenda except democracy. Other groups trying to further their own agenda is inevitable in any system and not related (this is obviously a much more favorable story line for the current government to tell the world). I cannot tell if the top comment knows this, but the comment about blowing up on social media suggest he doesn't understand it is the only way to communicate and get the message out. A) there is a media blackout, no television station reporting this inside Turkey. B) Turkcell the nations largest communications provider was pressured to disrupt communications in Istanbul (which they did) Point being social media is the only way to communicate about things like this, as the press are either in prison already or afraid. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3103432560875 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3103432560875 (police attacking random people including a woman for no reason). Here is the democratic leaders response “There is now a menace which is called Twitter,” Erdogan said. “The best examples of lies can be found there. To me, social media is the worst menace to society.” (you just can't make this stuff up). http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2013/06/02/Erdogan-rejects-dictator-claims.html http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2013/06/02/Erdoga...
Jun8 13y ago
Can you explain why you think so, or provide examples of "other groups pushing into it trying to use the protests for their own ends"? Up to know this has been largely backed by people who normally don't get involved with government protests.