4 ms·

States killed around 200 million people in 20th century. Does your statistics on violence include these victims?

by eatitraw 13y ago

parasubvert 13y ago
Yes, if you read the book synopsis. All indicators point to violence falling globally.
- eatitraw 13y ago
  Ok, thanks, I added the book into my to-read list, so I'll read it when I have enough time. My skepticism isn't unfounded: I remember watching some TED talk(I guess: by the author of this book -- I googled "Steven Pinker ted talk" but I didn't do any additional check). And this talk discussed rates of individual violence(IIRC, murder statistics or something like that), and I was wondering all the time why he excludes organized violence by governments/states in 20th century(and other too). 200 million is a serious number, and it can affect your stats significantly. If you "normalize" this number by year, you'll get 2 millions of people killed on average. 4x times more than individual murder rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... Well, I hope the book is better/clearer than his talk.
  - parasubvert 13y ago
    There are some FAQs on his book here (for example, how he complied war violence stats): http://stevenpinker.com/pages/frequently-asked-questions-about-better-angels-our-nature-why-violence-has-declined http://stevenpinker.com/pages/frequently-asked-questions-abo...
flyinRyan 13y ago
Those numbers sound very low to me, actually.
- eatitraw 13y ago
  Why? It is several percents of current world population. As I point out in nearby comment, if you simply divide this number by 100, you'll get rate that is 4x more than individual murder rate. The invidual murder rate doesn't seem to vary a lot across century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate_by_decade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... (judging by US), and total world population was 4 times lower in the beginning of 20th century, so I guess the "government murders : individual murders" ratio may be even bigger. And this is not counting sick sad stuff like unfair incancernation: nazi concentration camps, gulag in the USSR, camps in North Korea(where people may spend their whole life after they are born). For example, USSR government used capital punishment several times less often than imprisonment in gulag. Of course, on average gulag is better than capital punishment, but IMO - it is still government-made violence. In modern Russia there are a lot of people suffering because court system is fucked up: 99%+ of court verdict are convictions(<1% acquittals). Of course, not all cases get in court(some get closed before), but it is not so difficult to fake evidence. This is not an officially and centrally declared violence, but still it is violence. Regular criminals rob random people too.
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    >And this is not counting sick sad stuff like unfair incancernation: nazi concentration camps, gulag in the USSR, camps in North Korea This is what I was getting at. Things like Nazi concentration camps, starvation in Russia, etc., count because governments did this. It's an important thing to keep in mind for the people who believe democracy is non-optimal. Of course it's non-optimal, but in my mind I'm not looking for optimal, I'm looking to avoid situations where people are murdered unjustly by the government with no recourse.
    - eatitraw 13y ago
      You should definitely look into anarchy. I am serious. If you don't like government, find that sort of anarchy which fits your beliefs. For me, there is libertarian anarcho-capitalism. If you are interested, I recommend you to start with the book "For A New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto" : http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp (it is available for fownload for free)

States killed around 200 million people in 20th century. Does your statistics on violence include these victims?

parasubvert 13y ago

Yes, if you read the book synopsis. All indicators point to violence falling globally.

eatitraw 13y ago
Ok, thanks, I added the book into my to-read list, so I'll read it when I have enough time. My skepticism isn't unfounded: I remember watching some TED talk(I guess: by the author of this book -- I googled "Steven Pinker ted talk" but I didn't do any additional check). And this talk discussed rates of individual violence(IIRC, murder statistics or something like that), and I was wondering all the time why he excludes organized violence by governments/states in 20th century(and other too). 200 million is a serious number, and it can affect your stats significantly. If you "normalize" this number by year, you'll get 2 millions of people killed on average. 4x times more than individual murder rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... Well, I hope the book is better/clearer than his talk.
- parasubvert 13y ago
  There are some FAQs on his book here (for example, how he complied war violence stats): http://stevenpinker.com/pages/frequently-asked-questions-about-better-angels-our-nature-why-violence-has-declined http://stevenpinker.com/pages/frequently-asked-questions-abo...

flyinRyan 13y ago

Those numbers sound very low to me, actually.

eatitraw 13y ago
Why? It is several percents of current world population. As I point out in nearby comment, if you simply divide this number by 100, you'll get rate that is 4x more than individual murder rate. The invidual murder rate doesn't seem to vary a lot across century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate_by_decade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... (judging by US), and total world population was 4 times lower in the beginning of 20th century, so I guess the "government murders : individual murders" ratio may be even bigger. And this is not counting sick sad stuff like unfair incancernation: nazi concentration camps, gulag in the USSR, camps in North Korea(where people may spend their whole life after they are born). For example, USSR government used capital punishment several times less often than imprisonment in gulag. Of course, on average gulag is better than capital punishment, but IMO - it is still government-made violence. In modern Russia there are a lot of people suffering because court system is fucked up: 99%+ of court verdict are convictions(<1% acquittals). Of course, not all cases get in court(some get closed before), but it is not so difficult to fake evidence. This is not an officially and centrally declared violence, but still it is violence. Regular criminals rob random people too.
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  >And this is not counting sick sad stuff like unfair incancernation: nazi concentration camps, gulag in the USSR, camps in North Korea This is what I was getting at. Things like Nazi concentration camps, starvation in Russia, etc., count because governments did this. It's an important thing to keep in mind for the people who believe democracy is non-optimal. Of course it's non-optimal, but in my mind I'm not looking for optimal, I'm looking to avoid situations where people are murdered unjustly by the government with no recourse.
  - eatitraw 13y ago
    You should definitely look into anarchy. I am serious. If you don't like government, find that sort of anarchy which fits your beliefs. For me, there is libertarian anarcho-capitalism. If you are interested, I recommend you to start with the book "For A New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto" : http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp (it is available for fownload for free)