5 ms·

It's not misunderstanding. You link to an awful video, draw general conclusions on the account of one event, and your unsaid conclusion is that Chinese people d

by gbog 13y ago

It's not misunderstanding. You link to an awful video, draw general conclusions on the account of one event, and your unsaid conclusion is that Chinese people disdain human lives. 100 years ago you'd have added infanticide. So, no, Chinese people are not heartless zombies workers, they cherish human life and had a full structured ethical system when Europe was Barbary, and they are taking themselves out of survival mode at a pace that is unseen in the history, which require some prioritization.

jacquesm 13y ago
You're more than just a little bit disingenuous here. Besides adding a whole pile of strawmen you seem to have a pre-conceived notion that in order to get out of a planned economy into a market economy there is no route other than those that lead through tremendously unsafe work practice and disregard for environmental issues. And we already know that that isn't true.
- gbog 13y ago
  "We"? And no, working practice are not tremendously unsafe in China, even if they are less safe than in the west in some industries. Chinese people have a much deeper relation with mother nature than in the west in many regards, their art and culture and literature and gardens are a proof of that. They are extremely concerned with environmental issues, thanks.
  - jcrites 13y ago
    A social interest in gardens and mother nature is one thing, but what about pollution regulations? The New York times suggests that there are significant problems with pollution in China: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/world/asia/as-chinas-environmental-woes-worsen-infighting-emerges-as-biggest-obstacle.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/world/asia/as-chinas-envir... "China’s state leadership transition has taken place this month against an ominous backdrop. More than 16,000 dead pigs have been found floating in rivers that provide drinking water to Shanghai. A haze akin to volcanic fumes cloaked the capital, causing convulsive coughing and obscuring the portrait of Mao Zedong on the gate to the Forbidden City." The article lists a number of specific problems, such as (1) oil companies not improving diesel fuel quality (2) coal power plants violating emissions standards (resulting in sulfur levels at least 23 times the US levels) (3) non-compliance by power and oil companies with existing regulations. The typical Chinese citizen might be very concerned with the environment, but until the government gets corporations under control, pollution may run amok.
    - gbog 13y ago
      > pollution regulations > government gets corporations under control China has got its growths because government did (partially) lift their control over private interest. Narrow sighted people (including NYT) tend to forget it and spend a lot of energy lecturing China about government control and things like that. Not to say that there are no problems in China. But i think it is nauseating to grab a hooror video on Youtube and draw conclusions, or to voice concerns about Chinese pollution with the underlining preconception that Chinese people are dirty subhumans who don't care a shit.
prewett 13y ago
Today the apartment complex I in which I live in Beijing sent some guys out to fix a water leak my landlord reported. There are two: one guy with a big rope attached to a safety harness he is wearing, the other guy holding the rope with one hand. The first guy opens the window, climbs through it onto the 1-foot ledge on the 16th floor (the window only opens about 30 degrees, so this is a little challenging). He caulks a few places, with his companion holding onto the rope with his one hand, right above the (unclipped) harness clip. You can be sure that if the first guy slips, he's a goner, there's no way the second guy is going to catch 150 lbs with his one hand. So yes, factory conditions on average are probably better than the video, but no, this is not an isolated incident. I'm sure these guys cherish human life, but they've probably been doing this all month (at least) without a problem, why worry? Accidents always happen to the other guy. And there's nowhere to clip onto, so doing it the right way would be very mafan, whereas this way they got it done in 5 minutes. Quick and cheap, probably $10 max. The American way would be safe, take 30 minutes getting the harness set up, 5 minutes caulking, and cost at least $100.
- gbog 13y ago
  That's a good example, I have seen it and many other. It is not about basic first order security, it is more about second order precaution principles. In fact the precaution principle might be a factor paralyzing European economy right now.

by gbog 13y ago

jacquesm 13y ago

You're more than just a little bit disingenuous here. Besides adding a whole pile of strawmen you seem to have a pre-conceived notion that in order to get out of a planned economy into a market economy there is no route other than those that lead through tremendously unsafe work practice and disregard for environmental issues. And we already know that that isn't true.

gbog 13y ago
"We"? And no, working practice are not tremendously unsafe in China, even if they are less safe than in the west in some industries. Chinese people have a much deeper relation with mother nature than in the west in many regards, their art and culture and literature and gardens are a proof of that. They are extremely concerned with environmental issues, thanks.
- jcrites 13y ago
  A social interest in gardens and mother nature is one thing, but what about pollution regulations? The New York times suggests that there are significant problems with pollution in China: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/world/asia/as-chinas-environmental-woes-worsen-infighting-emerges-as-biggest-obstacle.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/world/asia/as-chinas-envir... "China’s state leadership transition has taken place this month against an ominous backdrop. More than 16,000 dead pigs have been found floating in rivers that provide drinking water to Shanghai. A haze akin to volcanic fumes cloaked the capital, causing convulsive coughing and obscuring the portrait of Mao Zedong on the gate to the Forbidden City." The article lists a number of specific problems, such as (1) oil companies not improving diesel fuel quality (2) coal power plants violating emissions standards (resulting in sulfur levels at least 23 times the US levels) (3) non-compliance by power and oil companies with existing regulations. The typical Chinese citizen might be very concerned with the environment, but until the government gets corporations under control, pollution may run amok.
  - gbog 13y ago
    > pollution regulations > government gets corporations under control China has got its growths because government did (partially) lift their control over private interest. Narrow sighted people (including NYT) tend to forget it and spend a lot of energy lecturing China about government control and things like that. Not to say that there are no problems in China. But i think it is nauseating to grab a hooror video on Youtube and draw conclusions, or to voice concerns about Chinese pollution with the underlining preconception that Chinese people are dirty subhumans who don't care a shit.

prewett 13y ago

Today the apartment complex I in which I live in Beijing sent some guys out to fix a water leak my landlord reported. There are two: one guy with a big rope attached to a safety harness he is wearing, the other guy holding the rope with one hand. The first guy opens the window, climbs through it onto the 1-foot ledge on the 16th floor (the window only opens about 30 degrees, so this is a little challenging). He caulks a few places, with his companion holding onto the rope with his one hand, right above the (unclipped) harness clip. You can be sure that if the first guy slips, he's a goner, there's no way the second guy is going to catch 150 lbs with his one hand. So yes, factory conditions on average are probably better than the video, but no, this is not an isolated incident. I'm sure these guys cherish human life, but they've probably been doing this all month (at least) without a problem, why worry? Accidents always happen to the other guy. And there's nowhere to clip onto, so doing it the right way would be very mafan, whereas this way they got it done in 5 minutes. Quick and cheap, probably $10 max. The American way would be safe, take 30 minutes getting the harness set up, 5 minutes caulking, and cost at least $100.

gbog 13y ago
That's a good example, I have seen it and many other. It is not about basic first order security, it is more about second order precaution principles. In fact the precaution principle might be a factor paralyzing European economy right now.