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> Pollution, a total disrespect for the environment in general and for human lives in particular is what powers the trade that brings cheap goods to the stores

> Pollution, a total disrespect for the environment in general and for human lives in particular is what powers the trade that brings cheap goods to the stores near us. The Anti-China propaganda has reached HN.

sambeau 13y ago
Pointing out real flaws in China's employment & environmental business practices is not anti-China propaganda. These are things that generations of campaigners have fought against since the beginning of the industrial revolution. China is now being judged by the same rules as the rest of the world. This is fair and it is to be welcomed. With luck China and the other fast-growing economies of the world will embrace workers rights and environmental standards in far less than the ~200 years it took Europe.
jacquesm 13y ago
Wow, that's quite a feat of misunderstanding. And I tried pretty hard to make sure that that exact comment wouldn't be made in order to reject the thing out of hand. I'm fine with producing goods in the far east, but the fact is that the low prices are in fact powered by more than just a simple difference in value between currencies and standard of living. The pollution and the work place risks (including death) are a really large factor in those price differences, as corroborated not only by this particular video (which is horrifying) as well as by contact with people that live there or have spent significant time there. To dismiss this as propaganda is Ostrich politics at its best, we may have to simply realize that we will have to pay more for the goods that we receive unless we want to be explicitly named as accomplices in the situations that we have created. The fact that some companies have already started programs to track the resources that go into their goods and that some companies have agreed to living wages and anti-pollution measures for their entire supply chain indicates that at least in some boardrooms the message is heard. Profits are important but not that important.
- mbesto 13y ago
  but the fact is that the low prices are in fact powered by more than just a simple difference in value between currencies and standard of living. Outsourcing to China is based on a well known economic theory of international trade, called the H-O model[1], which basically says " that countries will export products that use their abundant and cheap factor(s) of production and import products that use the countries' scarce factor(s)." The pollution and the work place risks (including death) are a really large factor in those price differences Is this really news? I think the real issue here is the misinformation that is painted across media outlets, hence the OP's "propaganda" comment. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckscher%E2%80%93Ohlin_model http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckscher%E2%80%93Ohlin_model
- gbog 13y ago
  It's not misunderstanding. You link to an awful video, draw general conclusions on the account of one event, and your unsaid conclusion is that Chinese people disdain human lives. 100 years ago you'd have added infanticide. So, no, Chinese people are not heartless zombies workers, they cherish human life and had a full structured ethical system when Europe was Barbary, and they are taking themselves out of survival mode at a pace that is unseen in the history, which require some prioritization.
  - jacquesm 13y ago
    You're more than just a little bit disingenuous here. Besides adding a whole pile of strawmen you seem to have a pre-conceived notion that in order to get out of a planned economy into a market economy there is no route other than those that lead through tremendously unsafe work practice and disregard for environmental issues. And we already know that that isn't true.
    - gbog 13y ago
      "We"? And no, working practice are not tremendously unsafe in China, even if they are less safe than in the west in some industries. Chinese people have a much deeper relation with mother nature than in the west in many regards, their art and culture and literature and gardens are a proof of that. They are extremely concerned with environmental issues, thanks.
      - jcrites 13y ago
        A social interest in gardens and mother nature is one thing, but what about pollution regulations? The New York times suggests that there are significant problems with pollution in China: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/world/asia/as-chinas-environmental-woes-worsen-infighting-emerges-as-biggest-obstacle.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/world/asia/as-chinas-envir... "China’s state leadership transition has taken place this month against an ominous backdrop. More than 16,000 dead pigs have been found floating in rivers that provide drinking water to Shanghai. A haze akin to volcanic fumes cloaked the capital, causing convulsive coughing and obscuring the portrait of Mao Zedong on the gate to the Forbidden City." The article lists a number of specific problems, such as (1) oil companies not improving diesel fuel quality (2) coal power plants violating emissions standards (resulting in sulfur levels at least 23 times the US levels) (3) non-compliance by power and oil companies with existing regulations. The typical Chinese citizen might be very concerned with the environment, but until the government gets corporations under control, pollution may run amok.
- ghshephard 13y ago
  It really is basic anti-china propaganda, whether you are engaging in it deliberately or not. Horrific YouTube videos notwithstanding, the vast majority of chinese people working in those manufacturing jobs are far, far better off and safer than if they had to work in an agriculture position (In china, or the united states for that matter) Also - have you ever taken an Industrial First Aid course? Lots of gruesome depictions of what happens in some idiotic US workplaces as well.
idoco 13y ago
It looks like a reoccurring pattern today, that unexplained conspiracy theories are used to dismiss a well formed argument. Another example from the "What is Happening in Istanbul" thread - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5808064 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5808064 You can't just drop accusations like that without supporting them with, at least, an equally well formed argument.
- davidw 13y ago
  > It looks like a reoccurring pattern You want the political articles, you've got to accept the degraded quality of the site and discussion that goes along with them.
  - idoco 13y ago
    According to Thomas Mann "Everything is politics." , and this article is about technology not less than it's about politics. But I have to agree, that sadly there is a correlation between the low level of discussion and how political a topic is.
    - davidw 13y ago
      > this article is about technology Not, it is not. Here are some articles about technology: http://www.brython.info/ http://www.brython.info/ http://dehora.net/journal/2013/06/01/on-go/ http://dehora.net/journal/2013/06/01/on-go/ http://ninjasandrobots.com/three-mistakes-i-see-web-designers-make-over-and-over-again http://ninjasandrobots.com/three-mistakes-i-see-web-designer... http://moron4hire.tumblr.com/post/51904590190/processing-and-racket http://moron4hire.tumblr.com/post/51904590190/processing-and... The article this discussion is about is entirely about politics and economics, as is the resultant discussion. You will note that there is no discussion of "oh, if only there were technology to fix that problem". There is, and it was not employed in this case. Why it wasn't, and the consequences, are what the article is about. > But I have to agree, that sadly there is a correlation between the low level of discussion and how political a topic is. Anyone can comment on political articles, whereas it actually takes some interest and experience to discuss the relative merits of Ruby and Python, or Akka and Erlang.

sambeau 13y ago

Pointing out real flaws in China's employment & environmental business practices is not anti-China propaganda. These are things that generations of campaigners have fought against since the beginning of the industrial revolution. China is now being judged by the same rules as the rest of the world. This is fair and it is to be welcomed. With luck China and the other fast-growing economies of the world will embrace workers rights and environmental standards in far less than the ~200 years it took Europe.

jacquesm 13y ago

Wow, that's quite a feat of misunderstanding. And I tried pretty hard to make sure that that exact comment wouldn't be made in order to reject the thing out of hand. I'm fine with producing goods in the far east, but the fact is that the low prices are in fact powered by more than just a simple difference in value between currencies and standard of living. The pollution and the work place risks (including death) are a really large factor in those price differences, as corroborated not only by this particular video (which is horrifying) as well as by contact with people that live there or have spent significant time there. To dismiss this as propaganda is Ostrich politics at its best, we may have to simply realize that we will have to pay more for the goods that we receive unless we want to be explicitly named as accomplices in the situations that we have created. The fact that some companies have already started programs to track the resources that go into their goods and that some companies have agreed to living wages and anti-pollution measures for their entire supply chain indicates that at least in some boardrooms the message is heard. Profits are important but not that important.

mbesto 13y ago
but the fact is that the low prices are in fact powered by more than just a simple difference in value between currencies and standard of living. Outsourcing to China is based on a well known economic theory of international trade, called the H-O model[1], which basically says " that countries will export products that use their abundant and cheap factor(s) of production and import products that use the countries' scarce factor(s)." The pollution and the work place risks (including death) are a really large factor in those price differences Is this really news? I think the real issue here is the misinformation that is painted across media outlets, hence the OP's "propaganda" comment. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckscher%E2%80%93Ohlin_model http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckscher%E2%80%93Ohlin_model
gbog 13y ago
It's not misunderstanding. You link to an awful video, draw general conclusions on the account of one event, and your unsaid conclusion is that Chinese people disdain human lives. 100 years ago you'd have added infanticide. So, no, Chinese people are not heartless zombies workers, they cherish human life and had a full structured ethical system when Europe was Barbary, and they are taking themselves out of survival mode at a pace that is unseen in the history, which require some prioritization.
- jacquesm 13y ago
  You're more than just a little bit disingenuous here. Besides adding a whole pile of strawmen you seem to have a pre-conceived notion that in order to get out of a planned economy into a market economy there is no route other than those that lead through tremendously unsafe work practice and disregard for environmental issues. And we already know that that isn't true.
  - gbog 13y ago
    "We"? And no, working practice are not tremendously unsafe in China, even if they are less safe than in the west in some industries. Chinese people have a much deeper relation with mother nature than in the west in many regards, their art and culture and literature and gardens are a proof of that. They are extremely concerned with environmental issues, thanks.
    - jcrites 13y ago
      A social interest in gardens and mother nature is one thing, but what about pollution regulations? The New York times suggests that there are significant problems with pollution in China: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/world/asia/as-chinas-environmental-woes-worsen-infighting-emerges-as-biggest-obstacle.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/world/asia/as-chinas-envir... "China’s state leadership transition has taken place this month against an ominous backdrop. More than 16,000 dead pigs have been found floating in rivers that provide drinking water to Shanghai. A haze akin to volcanic fumes cloaked the capital, causing convulsive coughing and obscuring the portrait of Mao Zedong on the gate to the Forbidden City." The article lists a number of specific problems, such as (1) oil companies not improving diesel fuel quality (2) coal power plants violating emissions standards (resulting in sulfur levels at least 23 times the US levels) (3) non-compliance by power and oil companies with existing regulations. The typical Chinese citizen might be very concerned with the environment, but until the government gets corporations under control, pollution may run amok.
ghshephard 13y ago
It really is basic anti-china propaganda, whether you are engaging in it deliberately or not. Horrific YouTube videos notwithstanding, the vast majority of chinese people working in those manufacturing jobs are far, far better off and safer than if they had to work in an agriculture position (In china, or the united states for that matter) Also - have you ever taken an Industrial First Aid course? Lots of gruesome depictions of what happens in some idiotic US workplaces as well.

idoco 13y ago

It looks like a reoccurring pattern today, that unexplained conspiracy theories are used to dismiss a well formed argument. Another example from the "What is Happening in Istanbul" thread - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5808064 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5808064 You can't just drop accusations like that without supporting them with, at least, an equally well formed argument.

davidw 13y ago
> It looks like a reoccurring pattern You want the political articles, you've got to accept the degraded quality of the site and discussion that goes along with them.
- idoco 13y ago
  According to Thomas Mann "Everything is politics." , and this article is about technology not less than it's about politics. But I have to agree, that sadly there is a correlation between the low level of discussion and how political a topic is.
  - davidw 13y ago
    > this article is about technology Not, it is not. Here are some articles about technology: http://www.brython.info/ http://www.brython.info/ http://dehora.net/journal/2013/06/01/on-go/ http://dehora.net/journal/2013/06/01/on-go/ http://ninjasandrobots.com/three-mistakes-i-see-web-designers-make-over-and-over-again http://ninjasandrobots.com/three-mistakes-i-see-web-designer... http://moron4hire.tumblr.com/post/51904590190/processing-and-racket http://moron4hire.tumblr.com/post/51904590190/processing-and... The article this discussion is about is entirely about politics and economics, as is the resultant discussion. You will note that there is no discussion of "oh, if only there were technology to fix that problem". There is, and it was not employed in this case. Why it wasn't, and the consequences, are what the article is about. > But I have to agree, that sadly there is a correlation between the low level of discussion and how political a topic is. Anyone can comment on political articles, whereas it actually takes some interest and experience to discuss the relative merits of Ruby and Python, or Akka and Erlang.