4 ms·

Many local shops are looted by the protestors. Cars turned, stones thrown etc... So much for peaceful a protest. Mayoral election is less than a year away. Pro

by saejox 13y ago

Many local shops are looted by the protestors. Cars turned, stones thrown etc... So much for peaceful a protest. Mayoral election is less than a year away. Protest with your votes, not your fists.

markdown 13y ago
It didn't start that way. It started peacefully. The government escalated the situation when they tear-gassed peaceful protestors. Once the government starts attacking its people, all bets are off... emotion will trump reason and bad shit happens, often to innocent bystanders or property in the vicinity.
- mseebach 13y ago
  No, this is a coward's excuse. The police "attacking" is NOT a free pass to turn cars, throw stones or loot shops. You are always ultimately responsible for you own actions, and you're also responsible for being associated with bad actions if you stand by quietly when they are going on.
  - markdown 13y ago
    > No.. What are you disagreeing with? I didn't state a position on the matter, or at least didn't intend to. > The police "attacking" is NOT a free pass to turn cars, throw stones or loot shops. Yes of course; I never stated that it was. That behavior however, is a predictable occurrence when there is enough anger in a mob and herd mentality kicks in.
    - mseebach 13y ago
      > It didn't start that way. It started peacefully. OK. But as it did not end peacefully, not really relevant. > The government escalated the situation when they tear-gassed peaceful protestors. How is this relevant except to excuse the behaviour? The protesters didn't respond to the escalation by consolidating their resolve and standing their ground, they started destroying random people's property. > Once the government starts attacking its people, all bets are off... emotion will trump reason and bad shit happens, often to innocent bystanders or property in the vicinity. You indicate that the government bear the responsibility for this "bad shit" happening. They might trigger it, in the same way a big row triggers that someone hits someone else. Edit: I'm pretty sure that what's going on isn't that random peaceful protesters turned violent, but rather that this protest, like most other protests bound to clash with the police, is "anarchist" catnip. These troublemakers will turn up under the guise of being part of a legitimate, peaceful protest, and at the first sliver of police yielding power, they'll let go and start their regular regiment of vandalism and violence. I'm no sure what the best response is for the legitimate peaceful protesters in this case, though.
      - Ygg2 13y ago
        Or the government sneaked in their people to delegitimize the protesters. This is a well known way police or covert agencies work. Usually if protesters are well versed in such tactics the ring of strongest forms the ring around rest of the mass to protect them from interlopers that would give police a provocation they needed to attack the protesters or to delegimitize them.
        mseebach 13y ago
        How very convenient. Hand-wave it away: Maybe the police did it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
        Ygg2 13y ago
        I know it second hand from an acquaintance that studied Philosophy in Belgrade, Serbia. According to him it was spoken by Dragoljub Micunovic during the student protest in Belgrade during the 90-ties. This is something Milosevic was fond of doing to discredit the student protest. I know this acquaintance had no reason to lie to me, it came up in regular conversation. I don't have any archive material to corroborate but I could try to find something.
        mseebach 13y ago
        Oh, I'm sure it's happened in many places. But that doesn't make it an any less extraordinary claim that that explains what happened in Gezi, given the spontaneous nature of the protests. Also, by all accounts, police moved in on peaceful (if illegally congregated) protesters. The point of instigating is that you can paint the protest as violent before you move in.
iaskwhy 13y ago
I still don't know what to make out of this but there are pictures of what you talk about, just in case people don't believe it: http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/galeridetay.aspx?cid=69652&rid=2&p=1 http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/galeridetay.aspx?cid=69652...
noloqy 13y ago
I am a strong proponent of gun control, but I often hear opponents say that the lawful possession of guns to a certain extent ensures freedom of government oppression. Probably it would be a lot messier if citizens in a situation like this would draw guns against their government, but at moments like these I do see the value of such a argument.
crististm 13y ago
Yeah, let's bring flowers to a tank fight.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
wnight 13y ago
Even in Canadian protests the police have been caught sneaking in trouble-makers with rocks and black ski-masks. If they didn't create the panic they wouldn't get paid for solving it. Considering that the Turkish government is trying to make the protestors look bad so they have justification for going overboard in their earlier treatment of them, it's more likely that plain-clothes police officers looted those stores and overturned the cars. When something violent and destructive happens, look at who did the last such thing.

by saejox 13y ago

Many local shops are looted by the protestors. Cars turned, stones thrown etc... So much for peaceful a protest. Mayoral election is less than a year away. Protest with your votes, not your fists.

markdown 13y ago

It didn't start that way. It started peacefully. The government escalated the situation when they tear-gassed peaceful protestors. Once the government starts attacking its people, all bets are off... emotion will trump reason and bad shit happens, often to innocent bystanders or property in the vicinity.

mseebach 13y ago
No, this is a coward's excuse. The police "attacking" is NOT a free pass to turn cars, throw stones or loot shops. You are always ultimately responsible for you own actions, and you're also responsible for being associated with bad actions if you stand by quietly when they are going on.
- markdown 13y ago
  > No.. What are you disagreeing with? I didn't state a position on the matter, or at least didn't intend to. > The police "attacking" is NOT a free pass to turn cars, throw stones or loot shops. Yes of course; I never stated that it was. That behavior however, is a predictable occurrence when there is enough anger in a mob and herd mentality kicks in.
  - mseebach 13y ago
    > It didn't start that way. It started peacefully. OK. But as it did not end peacefully, not really relevant. > The government escalated the situation when they tear-gassed peaceful protestors. How is this relevant except to excuse the behaviour? The protesters didn't respond to the escalation by consolidating their resolve and standing their ground, they started destroying random people's property. > Once the government starts attacking its people, all bets are off... emotion will trump reason and bad shit happens, often to innocent bystanders or property in the vicinity. You indicate that the government bear the responsibility for this "bad shit" happening. They might trigger it, in the same way a big row triggers that someone hits someone else. Edit: I'm pretty sure that what's going on isn't that random peaceful protesters turned violent, but rather that this protest, like most other protests bound to clash with the police, is "anarchist" catnip. These troublemakers will turn up under the guise of being part of a legitimate, peaceful protest, and at the first sliver of police yielding power, they'll let go and start their regular regiment of vandalism and violence. I'm no sure what the best response is for the legitimate peaceful protesters in this case, though.
    - Ygg2 13y ago
      Or the government sneaked in their people to delegitimize the protesters. This is a well known way police or covert agencies work. Usually if protesters are well versed in such tactics the ring of strongest forms the ring around rest of the mass to protect them from interlopers that would give police a provocation they needed to attack the protesters or to delegimitize them.
      - mseebach 13y ago
        How very convenient. Hand-wave it away: Maybe the police did it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
        Ygg2 13y ago
        I know it second hand from an acquaintance that studied Philosophy in Belgrade, Serbia. According to him it was spoken by Dragoljub Micunovic during the student protest in Belgrade during the 90-ties. This is something Milosevic was fond of doing to discredit the student protest. I know this acquaintance had no reason to lie to me, it came up in regular conversation. I don't have any archive material to corroborate but I could try to find something.
        mseebach 13y ago
        Oh, I'm sure it's happened in many places. But that doesn't make it an any less extraordinary claim that that explains what happened in Gezi, given the spontaneous nature of the protests. Also, by all accounts, police moved in on peaceful (if illegally congregated) protesters. The point of instigating is that you can paint the protest as violent before you move in.

iaskwhy 13y ago

I still don't know what to make out of this but there are pictures of what you talk about, just in case people don't believe it: http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/galeridetay.aspx?cid=69652&rid=2&p=1 http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/galeridetay.aspx?cid=69652...

noloqy 13y ago

I am a strong proponent of gun control, but I often hear opponents say that the lawful possession of guns to a certain extent ensures freedom of government oppression. Probably it would be a lot messier if citizens in a situation like this would draw guns against their government, but at moments like these I do see the value of such a argument.

crististm 13y ago

Yeah, let's bring flowers to a tank fight.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

wnight 13y ago

Even in Canadian protests the police have been caught sneaking in trouble-makers with rocks and black ski-masks. If they didn't create the panic they wouldn't get paid for solving it. Considering that the Turkish government is trying to make the protestors look bad so they have justification for going overboard in their earlier treatment of them, it's more likely that plain-clothes police officers looted those stores and overturned the cars. When something violent and destructive happens, look at who did the last such thing.