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Disappointing that this essay (like so many others) talks about Plato without mentioning Diogenes. Plato is the stuffed shirt know-it-all, and Diogenes is the

• pg 19y ago
  Ultimately, Diogenes is more important. I don't see how you can say that. He left no work. All we have to judge him by is a few probably apocryphal stories.
  • neilc 19y ago
    IMHO it's hard to argue that any philosopher is more influential than Plato, especially when you consider the clear neo-Platonic influences on Christian theology, and the subsequent influence that that tradition has had on Western civilization.
    • dpapathanasiou 19y ago
      Influential, yes. Plato was an elitist to the extreme, and his notions of a rigid class hierarchy did shape early feudal civilization in Europe. But most important? Would you want to live in his Republic?
      • yters 19y ago
        Even more important, was Socrate's Republic meant to be taken seriously?
        • yters 19y ago
          Elaboration: keep in mind the whole point of creating a city in words was to get a look at the soul, and Socrates hints at the fact the city wouldn't be practical in real life.
      • pg 19y ago
        Can you explain how the Republic influenced the Merovingians?
        • dpapathanasiou 19y ago
          Not sure what you're referring to there, but the feudal ideas of class determined by birth and lack of social mobility were adopted from the Republic (though the ruling classes certainly took some liberties in their interpretation; some analyses of the Republic suggest it wasn't meant to be quite so rigid).
          • pg 19y ago
            You're simply restating what you said before. The germanic tribes already had class structure before they crossed over into the former imperial territories. And in any case, every settled agricultural society in history (Egypt, India, China) has had so far as we know a rigid social hierarchy. That of medieval Europe was by world standards comparatively porous. So unless you can point to some specific evidence that the germanic tribes that ruled early medieval Europe were influenced by the Republic, we should assume that they were just doing what they would have done anyway.
            • dpapathanasiou 19y ago
              FWIW, I do remember a reference to early Catholic structure based on the Republic, but it'll take me a while to go back and find that reference. We've gone off-topic, though: the main point here is that Diogenes' own philosophy is worthy, even though society at that time found it less palatable than Plato's. People ignored it (and still do) because it's less certain than Plato's "reliable" model of patterns, and also because it means giving up material comforts.
  • dpapathanasiou 19y ago
    Plato, despite his intellect (or perhaps because of it), turned out to be, as you say yourself, "naive and mistaken". Yet Diogenes was able to see that about Plato then, as a contemporary. And while it's true that he never sat down to write anything himself, his work has endured via written accounts of others (Diogenes was a real person, not a mythical figure).
    • yters 19y ago
      For a better presentation of the contemporary view of philosophers like Plato, you should read Aristophane's Clouds. It's also alot deeper in meaning than a mere facile mockery of poorly understood ideas.
      • dpapathanasiou 19y ago
        It's been a while since I read the Clouds. IIRC, it was a lot of scatological and Mae West style humor (i.e. "Is that a sword under your tunic, or are you happy to see me?"). Aristophanes has literary value, but he was just exposing holes in Plato's logic for comedic and theatrical value; he was not himself a serious philosopher.
        • mnemonicsloth 19y ago
          ... Serious Philosopher. Isn't that the whole problem expressed in two words? Euclid was arguably "more serious" as a philosopher than a mathematician -- his principal contribution was to build a logical framework around others' results. I want to start punning now -- who was more serious, Edward Teller or Richard Feynmann? -- but it's not useful. I'll simply note a certain dissonance in calling Diogenes serious, as you seem to.
          • yters 19y ago
            Just remember how important the fool is in Shakespeare...
        • yters 19y ago
• yters 19y ago
  Uh, have you read Plato's dialogues? The defining characteristic is that they aren't philosophical treatises, i.e. not pedantic monologues claiming all knowledge. Their whole point is to stimulate the reader to think for themselves on very interesting questions.
  • dpapathanasiou 19y ago
    Never ask a person of Greek descent if he's read Plato. The very idea! ;)
    • yters 19y ago
      The Diogenes quotes are interesting, but don't they lampoon Neo Platonic thought more than Plato himself?
  • create_account 19y ago
    Irony: the "Intelligent Design" guy is talking about thinking for himself!
    • yters 19y ago
      So what happens if I am merely testing whether people care more about the quality of my comments, vs some ideology I may or may not buy into? If this is going to be a better community than reddit, the way a person argues and supports their view should matter more than whether they happen to hold a controversial idea. For the most part I've been pretty impressed.