5 ms·

I have similar thoughts. I've been here for a few years and I haven't observed any specific decline. I'm a little confused by the perceived offense as well: it

by clicks 13y ago

I have similar thoughts. I've been here for a few years and I haven't observed any specific decline. I'm a little confused by the perceived offense as well: it's not good to tell someone something sucks? I would much rather hear honest thoughts about my projects ("seems like a waste of time, poor implementation anyway, maybe try $x instead?") than be given a false sense of security through unwarranted praise. Of course what is not cool is downright snippy dismissals without any substantiation, but I think those are still relatively rare. Really the most tragic thing about it all is that pointing out the "middlebrow dismissal" in a verbose comment/blogpost has become a meme unto itself. We spend so much time on meta-discussions now. So here's my idea of how to approach comments you guys feel are putting people down unfairly: neutralize the meanness by following up that very mean comment by saying something like "I don't think you're being fair, I think author of the post has made something really cool because $y". And, the $y part better be something technical, or else we're going further down into more non-substantive meta-discussion discussion.

PommeDeTerre 13y ago
Having been in the industry for some time now, I've observed significant generational differences between how criticism is given and accepted. When I worked with developers raised in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, they generally wouldn't hold back when it came to criticism. If something was done wrong, or if something was a stupid idea, they'd say so very bluntly and to-the-point. They'd also be more open to receiving such criticism, and would re-evaluate their own work or ideas without a second thought. They surely wouldn't let it hurt their feelings, or anything of that sort. Developers raised in the 1950s, 1960s and the first part of the 1970s tend to be willing to give out some harsh criticism, but I've found they're often less willing to accept it from others. They won't necessarily re-consider their ideas or work when questioned. The trend is more pronounced with developers raised in the late 1970s and 1980s. I've generally observed them to be far less critical of the work of others, but also even less willing to accept criticism directed at their work or ideas. Some even consider criticism to be unacceptable. Now I've started working with some developers raised during the 1990s, and their attitude is generally one of criticism being completely unacceptable. They don't necessarily think that praise is necessary all of the time, but they can often take any sort of criticism very personally. While it may just be tied to age, experience and maturity, I'm thinking it goes beyond such things. For example, I've seen several different professional developers raised in the 1990s actually cry in the workplace when faced with valid, and actually quite muted, criticism of their work. These people were adults, over 20 years old. I'd never seen anything like it with the thousands of other developers I've worked with over the years, even ones who were of a similar age at the time, but born earlier. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's what we're seeing here, too. Old developers, who have a more accepting attitude toward criticism, are more than willing to dish it out and receive it back. But the youngest generation has a very different attitude toward it, seeing criticism as extremely offensive, and even pseudo-criminal in nature. While many of them do just try to avoid giving and receiving criticism altogether, I do find it kind of funny and hypocritical when the more outspoken ones openly criticize those who are critical of others.
- Peaker 13y ago
  How many of today's 90 year old developers have you worked with? Sounds weird to be assessing developers raised in the 1920s.
  - lttlrck 13y ago
    "When I worked with developers raised in the 1920s, 1930s" Does that give enough context?
  - PommeDeTerre 13y ago
    It was actually quite common to work with programmers and managers in their 50s and 60s, back in the 1970s...
- mratzloff 13y ago
  I have worked with a variety of developers over my career. The best were the ones that accepted and even sought out criticism, and knew how to apply it. Developers that can't handle criticism should be let go. I would hesitate to generalize across generations. I have worked with some excellent younger developers who can take direct criticism and some terrible older developers whose ego couldn't fit through a door. I tend to be more direct with my criticism when someone "should know better" and gentler when it's a more advanced concept for them. I've found that works well for most people.
- henningb 13y ago
  I would argue criticism is communicated differently across generations, not being less accepted. There is a difference between a) "I don't like $x about your idea." b) "I like $y about your idea. I think you could make it even better if you do $x differently. For example like this: ..." In my experience, older generations tend to do a) more, while younger ones do (and expect) b) more. Not a bad development IMO.
  - stefantalpalaru 13y ago
    You'll probably enjoy the PLEASE statement in INTERCAL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTERCAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTERCAL

by clicks 13y ago

PommeDeTerre 13y ago

Having been in the industry for some time now, I've observed significant generational differences between how criticism is given and accepted. When I worked with developers raised in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, they generally wouldn't hold back when it came to criticism. If something was done wrong, or if something was a stupid idea, they'd say so very bluntly and to-the-point. They'd also be more open to receiving such criticism, and would re-evaluate their own work or ideas without a second thought. They surely wouldn't let it hurt their feelings, or anything of that sort. Developers raised in the 1950s, 1960s and the first part of the 1970s tend to be willing to give out some harsh criticism, but I've found they're often less willing to accept it from others. They won't necessarily re-consider their ideas or work when questioned. The trend is more pronounced with developers raised in the late 1970s and 1980s. I've generally observed them to be far less critical of the work of others, but also even less willing to accept criticism directed at their work or ideas. Some even consider criticism to be unacceptable. Now I've started working with some developers raised during the 1990s, and their attitude is generally one of criticism being completely unacceptable. They don't necessarily think that praise is necessary all of the time, but they can often take any sort of criticism very personally. While it may just be tied to age, experience and maturity, I'm thinking it goes beyond such things. For example, I've seen several different professional developers raised in the 1990s actually cry in the workplace when faced with valid, and actually quite muted, criticism of their work. These people were adults, over 20 years old. I'd never seen anything like it with the thousands of other developers I've worked with over the years, even ones who were of a similar age at the time, but born earlier. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's what we're seeing here, too. Old developers, who have a more accepting attitude toward criticism, are more than willing to dish it out and receive it back. But the youngest generation has a very different attitude toward it, seeing criticism as extremely offensive, and even pseudo-criminal in nature. While many of them do just try to avoid giving and receiving criticism altogether, I do find it kind of funny and hypocritical when the more outspoken ones openly criticize those who are critical of others.

Peaker 13y ago
How many of today's 90 year old developers have you worked with? Sounds weird to be assessing developers raised in the 1920s.
- lttlrck 13y ago
  "When I worked with developers raised in the 1920s, 1930s" Does that give enough context?
- PommeDeTerre 13y ago
  It was actually quite common to work with programmers and managers in their 50s and 60s, back in the 1970s...
mratzloff 13y ago
I have worked with a variety of developers over my career. The best were the ones that accepted and even sought out criticism, and knew how to apply it. Developers that can't handle criticism should be let go. I would hesitate to generalize across generations. I have worked with some excellent younger developers who can take direct criticism and some terrible older developers whose ego couldn't fit through a door. I tend to be more direct with my criticism when someone "should know better" and gentler when it's a more advanced concept for them. I've found that works well for most people.
henningb 13y ago
I would argue criticism is communicated differently across generations, not being less accepted. There is a difference between a) "I don't like $x about your idea." b) "I like $y about your idea. I think you could make it even better if you do $x differently. For example like this: ..." In my experience, older generations tend to do a) more, while younger ones do (and expect) b) more. Not a bad development IMO.
- stefantalpalaru 13y ago
  You'll probably enjoy the PLEASE statement in INTERCAL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTERCAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTERCAL