5 ms·

> you cannot fight your day-to-day work — long-term — by working on your own stuff, when you get home after already spending 6-7 hours working and thinking in a

by doktrin 13y ago

> you cannot fight your day-to-day work — long-term — by working on your own stuff, when you get home after already spending 6-7 hours working and thinking in a particular way. The author tagged it "sad" for a reason. That's precisely why this post resonated with me. Even short of literally switching mind sets, I find it tricky to get motivated to code after spending ~8 hours at work (coding). As it stands, I even find myself stressing out over weekends due to not being "productive" enough on side projects. Of slightly more relevance to the author, having done the 2-hour commute in SV (granted, from SF to Menlo because socially I couldn't stand the latter), I strongly recommend against it. Housing accommodations can be found in SF for a developer's wage, and I would strongly urge anyone and everyone to avoid spending 4 hours of their life each day in transit. It makes a difference.

mooreds 13y ago
I think of a 4 hour commute as (at least) a 33% pay cut. Unless you're getting paid to commute.
- maxerickson 13y ago
  I wonder if it is possible to construct a sensible tax that punishes commuters. Not because I think they deserve it or anything, more because people tend to be highly adaptable and commuting (speaking in generalities) stinks. Edit: I guess various congestion taxes are exactly what I suggest.
  - scotch_drinker 13y ago
    It would also likely be an extremely regressive tax so I'm not sure it would ever be sensible. People live in the suburbs because they can afford something that doesn't suck. The ultra poor and the ultra rich live in the city, the rest of us commute. And that's only slightly hyperbolic.
  - saraid216 13y ago
    I recommend this book as relevant to your interests: http://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp/0374285810 http://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp... Speck is kinda acerbic, but if you can get past this, his points are very good.
  - datalus 13y ago
    Are you serious? Your solution to fix commuting is to punish people who may depend on a job that's not in close proximity? Really... I have a job I depend heavily on and to make my life even more burdensome just seems inhumane. Please never get elected to office. Edit: To be fair, I work 2 days from home, but the idea of taxing people who may have no other option disgusts me. You probably can't even begin to identify with them.
    - maxerickson 13y ago
      I was quietly thinking out loud. So yes, I was perfectly serious. If some method of taxation was narrowly burdensome, I probably wouldn't think it was sensible. But, for instance, maybe there is a way to (relatively objectively) identify businesses that employ lots of people but are less location sensitive. Some mild tax on such a business should not have an enormous impact on the employees (I immediately see an objection to this idea, the cost of maintaining a location already provides similar pressure).
      - ak39 13y ago
        Punitive measures for folks who are already being punished because they ostensibly ALLOWED themselves to be punished??
        maxerickson 13y ago
        I would say you are over-analyzing my word choice. As I noted, congestion taxes have a similar goal (reducing traffic), but less questionable motivations (they generally directly address externalities rather than behavior). I was coming at it from the perspective of thinking about mechanisms that might be useful to try to shift aggregate group behavior towards something that is better for everybody. I certainly wasn't insisting that it was sensible.
    - ak39 13y ago
      Felt the same way. Is this a perfect example of the sociopath Hugh Macleod apex personality or what?!
- oblique63 13y ago
  and here I am dealing with a 6hr commute for what is essentially pocket change (if the recent SF income poll is anything to go by)... more reason to start looking for a new gig sooner rather than later I guess.
textminer 13y ago
About to start a daily commute from Berkeley to Menlo Park. Am optimistic about 880-South in the morning, and driving seems far faster and more peaceful than the BART -> Shuttle method. But I do mourn the loss of productive time on a daily basis, but can't imagine a better place to live. Even on a wonderful developer salary, I cannot possibly afford a nice apartment for me and my partner in San Francisco or on the peninsula. Especially compared to East Bay's prices...
- doktrin 13y ago
  > Even on a wonderful developer salary, I cannot possibly afford a nice apartment for me and my partner in San Francisco or on the peninsula. Especially compared to East Bay's prices Ah, yeah. I was unfortunately speaking from the POV of 1-person dwellings with, ahem, somewhat lax standards. I totally empathize with not finding something suitable for 2. A carpool might be worth looking into, but that said they're not really my cup of tea either (and, less productive than any single BART / train ride). Congrats on the new gig though, hopefully the work will be stimulating enough to offset any other inconvenience :)
- microtherion 13y ago
  I don’t quite follow the logic of driving being “faster”. In my experience, public transportation can be highly productive time for certain activities like reading, while driving is very limited in the activities you can safely do (though I used to have a tape in my car to help me practice singing scales, so there are some safe options).
  - textminer 13y ago
    I've just timed it out for about 45 minutes in the car, and an hour and fifteen for the BART/shuttle combo. I also quite like podcasts, so am all right with having just my ears free while driving.
    - rdl 13y ago
      Berkeley to Menlo Park is only 45 minutes if you leave at the correct time (before 6-7 and after 10am, and 1-3pm or >9pm), and there are no accidents or other delays. To get there with 95% odds, you often need to allow 70-80 minutes. I guess it depends on how bad being late is. Timing it to arrive at 0930 is actually really hard; I end up leaving around 0730 to be 99% certain of arriving on time. Sometimes it's an hour early, but sometimes only 15 minutes early.
narrator 13y ago
Does anyone know of advanced software development courses that are practical on a small mobile device screen? I love coursera but it only really works on a laptop or tablet and that's not always convenient when commuting. BTW, in case you hadn't done the math, you are wasting 12% of your life commuting. At least get audible.com for when you're stuck in the car.
- NoodleIncident 13y ago
  I second this request. It boggles my mind, just how much productivity and potential the form-factor of a phone sacrifices for portability and comfort. I learned to code by tapping away on my TI-83 in class when I was bored; I can't believe that doing work on a phone is so impossibly inconvenient.
encoderer 13y ago
I started getting up earlier and giving a couple of my very productive hours every morning to myself.
- megaframe 13y ago
  I focus on myself first thing in the morning. Gym then Code then Work. I found it calmed me down and since things always run late and never early its mostly working out. Any push back I got I told them they would need to pay for my non-existent crossfit class that was pre-paid for and they quickly move on. If that failed I told them I would get a note from my doctor and they had their choice to pay for a lifetime of cholesterol medication or have their oh so important meeting. I think the uncomfortable nature of medical issues stops most people.
  - Illotus 13y ago
    Exercise before work does seem to be very beneficial. I've occasionally gone to the gym before work and now commute by bicycle and it does seem to give noticeable boost of energy to the work day.
seanp2k2 13y ago
You never get the time commuting back. If you want a better work-life balance, move closer to work, or work closer to where you want to live. Switching jobs is not as hard as people make it out to be, esp. if you're good at "the game".
- Illotus 13y ago
  This. Also consider working remotely if you are into that. I had a job where I at first had to spend little over 2 hours per day commuting. The job became much more pleasurable after I got to do it from home (barring the occasional meeting of course).
calinet6 13y ago
Side projects are a fun idea, but I've found far more pleasure in dedicating myself to one focus: my day job. If your day job isn't something you can get passionate about and that fulfills whatever needs your side project is doing for you, then you might want to consider switching jobs. It's not that difficult, and the upsides can be exponential. In either case, I find my day job becomes my side and only project (as far as interest and passion and fulfillment) when I dedicate myself to it. This makes me happy and it makes my employer happy also.
- porker 13y ago
  So what you are saying is that work becomes your life, and your employer is happy because they 'own' you 24/7 and get many more hours of your-brain-output than they'd normally get for your salary? I've had far more pleasure writing very little code outside work and dedicating myself to my wife, friends and being outdoors. I don't want to look back when I die with regret for only pursuing my coding ideas, which are ephemeral. Each to their own though!
  - calinet6 13y ago
    No, that's absolutely not what I'm saying. Ideally it should be a relationship of mutual benefit. Dedicating yourself to your job doesn't mean you give up your work/life balance (definitely NOT what I mean), it means you're focused on your actual work while you're AT work, not distracted by side-projects, startup ideas, and anti-productive pursuits. I'm dedicated to work at work, but I leave at 6 and I leave it behind. I don't distract myself with side-projects at home, either. When I'm at home, I'm dedicated to everything you speak of. All I was saying is that side projects and startup ideas shouldn't be your focus while you're employed and at work. In my experience with having side-projects, I've been miserable by not being able to dedicate enough time to the side project, while my actual work suffered for distraction and time wasted. I prefer to have one pursuit in my work, and a life in my own time, and not mix them.
    - porker 13y ago
      Thanks for your clarification, I really appreciate it. I've been surrounded by bright starry-eyed graduates recently who take the view I was outlining. I was one once, and don't want others to lose a decade of their life :)

by doktrin 13y ago

mooreds 13y ago

I think of a 4 hour commute as (at least) a 33% pay cut. Unless you're getting paid to commute.

maxerickson 13y ago
I wonder if it is possible to construct a sensible tax that punishes commuters. Not because I think they deserve it or anything, more because people tend to be highly adaptable and commuting (speaking in generalities) stinks. Edit: I guess various congestion taxes are exactly what I suggest.
- scotch_drinker 13y ago
  It would also likely be an extremely regressive tax so I'm not sure it would ever be sensible. People live in the suburbs because they can afford something that doesn't suck. The ultra poor and the ultra rich live in the city, the rest of us commute. And that's only slightly hyperbolic.
- saraid216 13y ago
  I recommend this book as relevant to your interests: http://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp/0374285810 http://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp... Speck is kinda acerbic, but if you can get past this, his points are very good.
- datalus 13y ago
  Are you serious? Your solution to fix commuting is to punish people who may depend on a job that's not in close proximity? Really... I have a job I depend heavily on and to make my life even more burdensome just seems inhumane. Please never get elected to office. Edit: To be fair, I work 2 days from home, but the idea of taxing people who may have no other option disgusts me. You probably can't even begin to identify with them.
  - maxerickson 13y ago
    I was quietly thinking out loud. So yes, I was perfectly serious. If some method of taxation was narrowly burdensome, I probably wouldn't think it was sensible. But, for instance, maybe there is a way to (relatively objectively) identify businesses that employ lots of people but are less location sensitive. Some mild tax on such a business should not have an enormous impact on the employees (I immediately see an objection to this idea, the cost of maintaining a location already provides similar pressure).
    - ak39 13y ago
      Punitive measures for folks who are already being punished because they ostensibly ALLOWED themselves to be punished??
      - maxerickson 13y ago
        I would say you are over-analyzing my word choice. As I noted, congestion taxes have a similar goal (reducing traffic), but less questionable motivations (they generally directly address externalities rather than behavior). I was coming at it from the perspective of thinking about mechanisms that might be useful to try to shift aggregate group behavior towards something that is better for everybody. I certainly wasn't insisting that it was sensible.
  - ak39 13y ago
    Felt the same way. Is this a perfect example of the sociopath Hugh Macleod apex personality or what?!
oblique63 13y ago
and here I am dealing with a 6hr commute for what is essentially pocket change (if the recent SF income poll is anything to go by)... more reason to start looking for a new gig sooner rather than later I guess.

textminer 13y ago

About to start a daily commute from Berkeley to Menlo Park. Am optimistic about 880-South in the morning, and driving seems far faster and more peaceful than the BART -> Shuttle method. But I do mourn the loss of productive time on a daily basis, but can't imagine a better place to live. Even on a wonderful developer salary, I cannot possibly afford a nice apartment for me and my partner in San Francisco or on the peninsula. Especially compared to East Bay's prices...

doktrin 13y ago
> Even on a wonderful developer salary, I cannot possibly afford a nice apartment for me and my partner in San Francisco or on the peninsula. Especially compared to East Bay's prices Ah, yeah. I was unfortunately speaking from the POV of 1-person dwellings with, ahem, somewhat lax standards. I totally empathize with not finding something suitable for 2. A carpool might be worth looking into, but that said they're not really my cup of tea either (and, less productive than any single BART / train ride). Congrats on the new gig though, hopefully the work will be stimulating enough to offset any other inconvenience :)
microtherion 13y ago
I don’t quite follow the logic of driving being “faster”. In my experience, public transportation can be highly productive time for certain activities like reading, while driving is very limited in the activities you can safely do (though I used to have a tape in my car to help me practice singing scales, so there are some safe options).
- textminer 13y ago
  I've just timed it out for about 45 minutes in the car, and an hour and fifteen for the BART/shuttle combo. I also quite like podcasts, so am all right with having just my ears free while driving.
  - rdl 13y ago
    Berkeley to Menlo Park is only 45 minutes if you leave at the correct time (before 6-7 and after 10am, and 1-3pm or >9pm), and there are no accidents or other delays. To get there with 95% odds, you often need to allow 70-80 minutes. I guess it depends on how bad being late is. Timing it to arrive at 0930 is actually really hard; I end up leaving around 0730 to be 99% certain of arriving on time. Sometimes it's an hour early, but sometimes only 15 minutes early.

narrator 13y ago

Does anyone know of advanced software development courses that are practical on a small mobile device screen? I love coursera but it only really works on a laptop or tablet and that's not always convenient when commuting. BTW, in case you hadn't done the math, you are wasting 12% of your life commuting. At least get audible.com for when you're stuck in the car.

NoodleIncident 13y ago
I second this request. It boggles my mind, just how much productivity and potential the form-factor of a phone sacrifices for portability and comfort. I learned to code by tapping away on my TI-83 in class when I was bored; I can't believe that doing work on a phone is so impossibly inconvenient.

encoderer 13y ago

I started getting up earlier and giving a couple of my very productive hours every morning to myself.

megaframe 13y ago
I focus on myself first thing in the morning. Gym then Code then Work. I found it calmed me down and since things always run late and never early its mostly working out. Any push back I got I told them they would need to pay for my non-existent crossfit class that was pre-paid for and they quickly move on. If that failed I told them I would get a note from my doctor and they had their choice to pay for a lifetime of cholesterol medication or have their oh so important meeting. I think the uncomfortable nature of medical issues stops most people.
- Illotus 13y ago
  Exercise before work does seem to be very beneficial. I've occasionally gone to the gym before work and now commute by bicycle and it does seem to give noticeable boost of energy to the work day.

seanp2k2 13y ago

You never get the time commuting back. If you want a better work-life balance, move closer to work, or work closer to where you want to live. Switching jobs is not as hard as people make it out to be, esp. if you're good at "the game".

Illotus 13y ago
This. Also consider working remotely if you are into that. I had a job where I at first had to spend little over 2 hours per day commuting. The job became much more pleasurable after I got to do it from home (barring the occasional meeting of course).

calinet6 13y ago

Side projects are a fun idea, but I've found far more pleasure in dedicating myself to one focus: my day job. If your day job isn't something you can get passionate about and that fulfills whatever needs your side project is doing for you, then you might want to consider switching jobs. It's not that difficult, and the upsides can be exponential. In either case, I find my day job becomes my side and only project (as far as interest and passion and fulfillment) when I dedicate myself to it. This makes me happy and it makes my employer happy also.

porker 13y ago
So what you are saying is that work becomes your life, and your employer is happy because they 'own' you 24/7 and get many more hours of your-brain-output than they'd normally get for your salary? I've had far more pleasure writing very little code outside work and dedicating myself to my wife, friends and being outdoors. I don't want to look back when I die with regret for only pursuing my coding ideas, which are ephemeral. Each to their own though!
- calinet6 13y ago
  No, that's absolutely not what I'm saying. Ideally it should be a relationship of mutual benefit. Dedicating yourself to your job doesn't mean you give up your work/life balance (definitely NOT what I mean), it means you're focused on your actual work while you're AT work, not distracted by side-projects, startup ideas, and anti-productive pursuits. I'm dedicated to work at work, but I leave at 6 and I leave it behind. I don't distract myself with side-projects at home, either. When I'm at home, I'm dedicated to everything you speak of. All I was saying is that side projects and startup ideas shouldn't be your focus while you're employed and at work. In my experience with having side-projects, I've been miserable by not being able to dedicate enough time to the side project, while my actual work suffered for distraction and time wasted. I prefer to have one pursuit in my work, and a life in my own time, and not mix them.
  - porker 13y ago
    Thanks for your clarification, I really appreciate it. I've been surrounded by bright starry-eyed graduates recently who take the view I was outlining. I was one once, and don't want others to lose a decade of their life :)