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Except that this isn't the truth. H1B imported engineers aren't the best in their field, working for top wages. They're middling-low, working for below-averag

Except that this isn't the truth. H1B imported engineers aren't the best in their field, working for top wages. They're middling-low, working for below-average wages. They pull down wages for the entire software engineering field by about 6%, say the studies. If H1B's are really the best software engineers in the world, why are they being hired for less than the average wages in the U.S. for average engineers? I appreciate that there's a persistent media myth that H1B is about getting "top" engineers, but this has been thoroughly, totally debunked and should be roundly mocked whenever it shows up.

khuey 13y ago
Truly world-class engineers can be brought to the US on O visas. H1Bs are trying to fill a need for good or even great, but not amazing, engineers. Which is why it's a tragedy that so many of the spots go to shitty outsourcing firms for mediocre wages.
- ktsmith 13y ago
  Depending on the field getting an O visa can be exceptionally hard as they are intended for exceptional people. One of my clients has four or five employees with O visas and these people are all top of their field including a nobel laureate. You could easily be in the top 5% of your field and get rejected for an O.
  - khuey 13y ago
    Yes, that's the idea.
    - ktsmith 13y ago
      Sure, but most people here are not really talking about world class engineers.
- pandaman 13y ago
  They could not get O visa for Linus Torvalds. Not amazing enough, eh?
  - khuey 13y ago
    I haven't seen anything about Linus applying for an O visa and getting denied. Where can I read about that?
    - pandaman 13y ago
      From what I remember lawyers advised against O as he had no chance without publications.
untog 13y ago
I take exception that argument because, well, I'd like to think of myself as an exception. I arrived in the US as an H1B and while it's difficult to talk about my skills objectively, I am certainly not paid below-average wages. I don't doubt that the majority of H1B visa holders are as you say. But the system can work correctly- I and many others I know are hopefully proof of that. So, "totally" debunked? No.
- Retric 13y ago
  There is a separate visa for top tallent. H1B's are randomly assigned because it's about body's not tallent. Which is not to say we don't get top tallent randomly, but if your paying 400k/year you don't need to risk the H1B lotto. PS: you only need 3 on that list and 4, 6, and 8 are not that hard to meet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa
  - harichinnan 13y ago
    Did you miss the comment that Linus Torvald didn't qualify for O visa.
    - Retric 13y ago
      Any idea when this was? He is a US citizen which takes a long time, so this must have been a while ago. Depending on when he was denied he could easily not met the qualifications.
      - pandaman 13y ago
        It's been when he got job in Transmeta in early 2000s. At that time he has already been very well known. You obviously have not been involved in O visa process otherwise you'd known that the qualifications for O visa are chiefly publications (other qualifications would be academic awards, involvement with awarding those awards and such). So any PhD can get one while a programmer who is not into writing books and articles for peer reviewed journals has no chance.
avemuri 13y ago
Source? I'm questioning it simply because I remember from browsing US News stats during my grad school applications that pretty much every graduate department in STEM fields was 20-50% foreign students. I only looked at the top 20-30 schools, but that's a pretty substantial cohort. Maybe there are sweatshops out there that hire middling-low candidates at below market wages, but it's hard to dismiss the presence of a large pool that certainly ARE the best in the field.
- ng12 13y ago
  Being in graduate school has nothing to do with being the best in the field. Very few American-educated STEM majors (or, at least in CS) go on to grad school since they can easily get the same job with a BSc as a foreign student with a MS. Getting a masters can help fast-track you in the visa process and make your resume more attractive for employers who are largely ignorant about Indian/Chinese/etc education systems. It's more of a competitive necessity for a foreign student.
  - avemuri 13y ago
    It's not a necessary or sufficient condition, but it's a good signal that you're at least above average if you're at a top 30 grad program. I'd say the majority (but not all) of those foreign students would at least escape the 'low-middling' categorization. P.S. We may be coming from different perspectives since I'm a mechanical engineer. A grad degree does make a significant difference there. Also, I was talking about both MS and PhD students. P.P.S. I may have gone overboard in saying 'best' in the field. I merely meant good.
pandaman 13y ago
While it's true that the bulk of H1B are bodies for Indian body shops it's not a problem with H1B, it's the problem with the corrupt government issuing visas to body shops. And it's true that H1B's are not the best engineers in the world. However many of the best engineers in the world are H1Bs.
- Stratego 13y ago
  It's true based on what data, exactly?
  - pandaman 13y ago
    H1b distribution is public record.
null_ptr 13y ago
> Except that this isn't the truth. H1B imported engineers aren't the best in their field, working for top wages. They're middling-low, working for below-average wages. That's a blanket statement. There's a difference between the H1B mill contracting firms and H1Bs that are directly recruited by top companies, and paid on par with their American employees. The H1B mills give genuinely talented workers who fully deserve their positions a bad name, and that's a real shame.
- cesarbs 13y ago
  Glad someone pointed that out. That distinction seem to be constantly forgotten in this debate. Top companies recruit H1Bs using the same process they use to recruit Americans.
BadassFractal 13y ago
I was going to say exactly this. As an ex-H1B myself working for a top firm, I can guarantee you I was in no way top of the line at the time. I was very much equivalent to every other average USA top 5 CS school graduate working with me at the company, and that's to say, not particularly impressive in any way. Moving to SF/SV and working with the startup and open source communities has really opened my eyes to what a "top engineer" really means, and I sure as hell wasn't one (or surrounded by them) at BigCorp. Real top talent is really hard to get hold of, and the dozens of thousands of H1Bs are absolutely not that top 5%. The way I see it, H1B is a way to get slightly cheaper decent labor for big enterprise firms, and you occasionally luck out and get a few great gems in there. Even better if you can lock them in to your company for 10 years waiting for the green card to get approved.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

khuey 13y ago

Truly world-class engineers can be brought to the US on O visas. H1Bs are trying to fill a need for good or even great, but not amazing, engineers. Which is why it's a tragedy that so many of the spots go to shitty outsourcing firms for mediocre wages.

ktsmith 13y ago
Depending on the field getting an O visa can be exceptionally hard as they are intended for exceptional people. One of my clients has four or five employees with O visas and these people are all top of their field including a nobel laureate. You could easily be in the top 5% of your field and get rejected for an O.
- khuey 13y ago
  Yes, that's the idea.
  - ktsmith 13y ago
    Sure, but most people here are not really talking about world class engineers.
pandaman 13y ago
They could not get O visa for Linus Torvalds. Not amazing enough, eh?
- khuey 13y ago
  I haven't seen anything about Linus applying for an O visa and getting denied. Where can I read about that?
  - pandaman 13y ago
    From what I remember lawyers advised against O as he had no chance without publications.

untog 13y ago

I take exception that argument because, well, I'd like to think of myself as an exception. I arrived in the US as an H1B and while it's difficult to talk about my skills objectively, I am certainly not paid below-average wages. I don't doubt that the majority of H1B visa holders are as you say. But the system can work correctly- I and many others I know are hopefully proof of that. So, "totally" debunked? No.

Retric 13y ago
There is a separate visa for top tallent. H1B's are randomly assigned because it's about body's not tallent. Which is not to say we don't get top tallent randomly, but if your paying 400k/year you don't need to risk the H1B lotto. PS: you only need 3 on that list and 4, 6, and 8 are not that hard to meet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa
- harichinnan 13y ago
  Did you miss the comment that Linus Torvald didn't qualify for O visa.
  - Retric 13y ago
    Any idea when this was? He is a US citizen which takes a long time, so this must have been a while ago. Depending on when he was denied he could easily not met the qualifications.
    - pandaman 13y ago
      It's been when he got job in Transmeta in early 2000s. At that time he has already been very well known. You obviously have not been involved in O visa process otherwise you'd known that the qualifications for O visa are chiefly publications (other qualifications would be academic awards, involvement with awarding those awards and such). So any PhD can get one while a programmer who is not into writing books and articles for peer reviewed journals has no chance.

avemuri 13y ago

Source? I'm questioning it simply because I remember from browsing US News stats during my grad school applications that pretty much every graduate department in STEM fields was 20-50% foreign students. I only looked at the top 20-30 schools, but that's a pretty substantial cohort. Maybe there are sweatshops out there that hire middling-low candidates at below market wages, but it's hard to dismiss the presence of a large pool that certainly ARE the best in the field.

ng12 13y ago
Being in graduate school has nothing to do with being the best in the field. Very few American-educated STEM majors (or, at least in CS) go on to grad school since they can easily get the same job with a BSc as a foreign student with a MS. Getting a masters can help fast-track you in the visa process and make your resume more attractive for employers who are largely ignorant about Indian/Chinese/etc education systems. It's more of a competitive necessity for a foreign student.
- avemuri 13y ago
  It's not a necessary or sufficient condition, but it's a good signal that you're at least above average if you're at a top 30 grad program. I'd say the majority (but not all) of those foreign students would at least escape the 'low-middling' categorization. P.S. We may be coming from different perspectives since I'm a mechanical engineer. A grad degree does make a significant difference there. Also, I was talking about both MS and PhD students. P.P.S. I may have gone overboard in saying 'best' in the field. I merely meant good.

pandaman 13y ago

While it's true that the bulk of H1B are bodies for Indian body shops it's not a problem with H1B, it's the problem with the corrupt government issuing visas to body shops. And it's true that H1B's are not the best engineers in the world. However many of the best engineers in the world are H1Bs.

Stratego 13y ago
It's true based on what data, exactly?
- pandaman 13y ago
  H1b distribution is public record.

null_ptr 13y ago

> Except that this isn't the truth. H1B imported engineers aren't the best in their field, working for top wages. They're middling-low, working for below-average wages. That's a blanket statement. There's a difference between the H1B mill contracting firms and H1Bs that are directly recruited by top companies, and paid on par with their American employees. The H1B mills give genuinely talented workers who fully deserve their positions a bad name, and that's a real shame.

cesarbs 13y ago
Glad someone pointed that out. That distinction seem to be constantly forgotten in this debate. Top companies recruit H1Bs using the same process they use to recruit Americans.

BadassFractal 13y ago

I was going to say exactly this. As an ex-H1B myself working for a top firm, I can guarantee you I was in no way top of the line at the time. I was very much equivalent to every other average USA top 5 CS school graduate working with me at the company, and that's to say, not particularly impressive in any way. Moving to SF/SV and working with the startup and open source communities has really opened my eyes to what a "top engineer" really means, and I sure as hell wasn't one (or surrounded by them) at BigCorp. Real top talent is really hard to get hold of, and the dozens of thousands of H1Bs are absolutely not that top 5%. The way I see it, H1B is a way to get slightly cheaper decent labor for big enterprise firms, and you occasionally luck out and get a few great gems in there. Even better if you can lock them in to your company for 10 years waiting for the green card to get approved.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]