7 ms·

That tends to be the case mostly everywhere in Europe. For that matter, most places in the world outside the US (and Silicon Valley) tend not to pay software en

That tends to be the case mostly everywhere in Europe. For that matter, most places in the world outside the US (and Silicon Valley) tend not to pay software engineers very competitively. I am from a fairly small central European country and programmers there barely make more than other professions; the salaries often amount to the national average.

acangiano 13y ago
Remote-work-friendly companies can capitalize on that.
- petercooper 13y ago
  They sure do :) Can't name names but I know at least one of the biggest (and wealthiest) companies in the Rails apps scene pays its remote employees a fair wage by where those employees live, not by what would be acceptable in Chicago.
  - auvi 13y ago
    37 Signals it is then.
  - graue 13y ago
    Wait a sec, are you implying the remote employees live somewhere with a lower cost of living than Chicago? In my experience Chicago is pretty darn cheap, comparable to a place like Berlin.
shubb 13y ago
But competitively is the word. They can attract software engineers at those low wages, therefore they are competitive. This seems strange to me, as it takes a few years for someone to get good at software (the supply is constricted), and where I've been involved in recruitment, finding good people is difficult. It's also interesting to see that people get paid so much more in finance, or at American companies. That is, a finance house could probably hire any good 5+ year C++ developer at the 'normal C++ developer' rate of 30k, and get good results. But they choose to pay 50K for a 'finance C++ developer', whether he was earning 30K last week or not. That says to me that pay is not set by supply by labor supply and demand but something else. That is, you don't get rich by having rare skills that make people money, you get them by knowing which industries pay over the odds for labor. I think that's a good thing to realize if you want to be comfortable.
- doktrin 13y ago
  How familiar are you with the finance industry? I'm not currently under the impression that anyone with C++ experience is interchangeable with a C++ dev with finance experience.
- UK-AL 13y ago
  In reality pay is not set by supply and demand. People have fixed ideas about what a job is worth, and refuse to pay above this. When everyone thinks like this, you have implicit collusion. Banks, finance etc do tend think in supply and demand terms. Can't find good people? Raise the price. Hardly ever happens in other industries.
- elemeno 13y ago
  It's not so much that they're paying for a C++ developer, they're paying for a C++ developer (or C#/Java/whatever developer) with a certain set of skills. The sort of developers that get well paid in finance (it should be noted that there's a vast range of dev salaries in banking depending on the sort of roles being worked in with Quants, Quant/Devs and Front Office developers being very much at the top of the pile) are those that have Masters or PhDs in Maths and work on pricing algorithms, those who work on high frequency type applications, those who have enough maths that they can turn algorithms into solid applications that can't fall over during the trading day (i.e. solid, highly optimised software), or those who can interact with the trading desks and build anything which helps the desk make more money. One thing they'll all have in common as well is a large amount of domain knowledge about the (financial) products that they work on, as well as the ability to work in environment which are often noisy and stressful. Anyone who needs their own office and a quiet environment in order to get into the zone and hack on some code is not going to thrive at a bank.
  - easytiger 13y ago
    YEa i think the op is ignoring the value of domain knowledge
krzyk 13y ago
I'm also from Europe and in our country it's the contrary, one of the companies was few years ago advertising that they give developers salaries that are at least two country average. And that wasn't even in the capital (but a 2nd largest city). Here I think we are one of the best paid non-management people (apart from doctors/lawyers) Edit: Forgot to mention the country - Poland
- draugadrotten 13y ago
  I am from Europe but have friends in Ukraine among other places. In Ukraine, programmers are paid very well compared to the national average. So well paid that the 20-something programmers gets rockstar status with girls, and rockstar habits with vodka and drugs. This isn't very good for Ukraine startups.
  - lkozma 13y ago
    > I am from Europe but have friends in Ukraine.. Ukraine is in Europe.
    - hnriot 13y ago
      Maybe geographically, but it's not in the EU and nobody in/from Europe or the Ukraine would ever say it's in Europe. Just like Russia is also geographically (at least in part) in Europe, but it's by no means European. Google (or books) are your friend :)
      - lkozma 13y ago
        I think your condescension is unnecessary, you know nothing about my reading (or Googling) habits. By any reasonable definition, Ukraine is in Eastern Europe, whether you use geographical, political or historical definitions. This is what Wikipedia says, as do most atlases and the CIA world factbook, in fact I've yet to see a source saying otherwise, but you can surely provide links to one. The EU is not the same as Europe, by that narrow definition, Switzerland is not Europe. Your statement that nobody in/from Europe or Ukraine would say it's in Europe can be disproved with a simple counterexample: I'm from/in Europe and I say so, just as a random sample of my Ukrainian acquaintances. No comment on Russia being "by no means" European. I guess you'll need to do a lot of Wikipedia editing to remove all references to Tolstoy from the pages on European literature.
Nursie 13y ago
They pay just fine in Australia. Of course the cost of living is alsop very high.
- scotty79 13y ago
  Best of both worlds. Live in small European country. Work remotely for Australian company.
- fractalsea 13y ago
  I also work in Australia (having come from UK after finishing my uni degree last year), and am already being paid $75k AUD (nearly £50k). For this reason I was shocked to see how low the salaries were for London, and working for an Australian company remote in England is what I'll aim to do in the future. Being here has been a great way to form connections.
tudorconstantin 13y ago
In Romania an entry level dev gets 30% more than the national average and that raises quickly. In 7-8 years he's able to earn 400%+ more than national average. And still be paid less than an entry level in UK. National average net income is about 400 euros
- acchow 13y ago
  Is this anecdotal or do you have data? If real, it's nice seeing the beginnings of programming jobs crossing arbitrary political lines.
  - ThePawnBreak 13y ago
    I'm a Romanian student in Bucharest and tudorconstantin's claims seem on target. The average wage for an intern is 400 euros (based on what I hear from other students) and the starting salary after graduation is about 700 euros. Here are some internships with posted salary: http://4psa.stagiipebune.ro/stagii.html&id=1189&category=70 http://4psa.stagiipebune.ro/stagii.html&id=1189&cate... http://adobe.stagiipebune.ro/stagii.html&id=1241&category=71 http://adobe.stagiipebune.ro/stagii.html&id=1241&cat...
    - lgeek 13y ago
      Are those internships and jobs aimed at relatively competent students/grads? I'm asking because those salaries would have been considered quite low back in 2008 before I've emigrated.
  - tudorconstantin 13y ago
    There is data regarding the national average net income - this article for example, from april 2012: http://www.romania-insider.com/average-salary-in-romania-almost-flat-in-february-biggest-rise-in-tobacco-industry/54699/ http://www.romania-insider.com/average-salary-in-romania-alm... Regarding payments to juniors and interns, I know it from the market - I know some salaries of my colleagues. When I started in IT - in 2006, I started with about 230 euros net, which was also decent. I am talking here about Cluj-Napoca (the second largest city in the country), not the capital, where salaries are better. So, if you want to live in a place and earn 4-5 times the national average income while doing what you like (programming), come to Romania :))
nilkn 13y ago
> For that matter, most places in the world outside the US (and Silicon Valley) tend not to pay software engineers very competitively. In the US, my experience is that software developers generally are paid competitively. CS and chemical engineering graduates routinely get the highest starting salaries all around the country when it comes to four year degrees. That starting salary may be $100k in Silicon Valley, $80k in Chicago, and $60k in Nashville, but all three numbers are competitive relative to the local market. In fact, you will find that in comparison to the cost of housing $100k in Silicon Valley is not quite as well paid as you think.
rmc 13y ago
I'm from Ireland, and the government's low tax approach is great for us workers. We get lots of bit US employers setting up here, and hence increasing the competition for developers.

acangiano 13y ago

Remote-work-friendly companies can capitalize on that.

petercooper 13y ago
They sure do :) Can't name names but I know at least one of the biggest (and wealthiest) companies in the Rails apps scene pays its remote employees a fair wage by where those employees live, not by what would be acceptable in Chicago.
- auvi 13y ago
  37 Signals it is then.
- graue 13y ago
  Wait a sec, are you implying the remote employees live somewhere with a lower cost of living than Chicago? In my experience Chicago is pretty darn cheap, comparable to a place like Berlin.

shubb 13y ago

But competitively is the word. They can attract software engineers at those low wages, therefore they are competitive. This seems strange to me, as it takes a few years for someone to get good at software (the supply is constricted), and where I've been involved in recruitment, finding good people is difficult. It's also interesting to see that people get paid so much more in finance, or at American companies. That is, a finance house could probably hire any good 5+ year C++ developer at the 'normal C++ developer' rate of 30k, and get good results. But they choose to pay 50K for a 'finance C++ developer', whether he was earning 30K last week or not. That says to me that pay is not set by supply by labor supply and demand but something else. That is, you don't get rich by having rare skills that make people money, you get them by knowing which industries pay over the odds for labor. I think that's a good thing to realize if you want to be comfortable.

doktrin 13y ago
How familiar are you with the finance industry? I'm not currently under the impression that anyone with C++ experience is interchangeable with a C++ dev with finance experience.
UK-AL 13y ago
In reality pay is not set by supply and demand. People have fixed ideas about what a job is worth, and refuse to pay above this. When everyone thinks like this, you have implicit collusion. Banks, finance etc do tend think in supply and demand terms. Can't find good people? Raise the price. Hardly ever happens in other industries.
elemeno 13y ago
It's not so much that they're paying for a C++ developer, they're paying for a C++ developer (or C#/Java/whatever developer) with a certain set of skills. The sort of developers that get well paid in finance (it should be noted that there's a vast range of dev salaries in banking depending on the sort of roles being worked in with Quants, Quant/Devs and Front Office developers being very much at the top of the pile) are those that have Masters or PhDs in Maths and work on pricing algorithms, those who work on high frequency type applications, those who have enough maths that they can turn algorithms into solid applications that can't fall over during the trading day (i.e. solid, highly optimised software), or those who can interact with the trading desks and build anything which helps the desk make more money. One thing they'll all have in common as well is a large amount of domain knowledge about the (financial) products that they work on, as well as the ability to work in environment which are often noisy and stressful. Anyone who needs their own office and a quiet environment in order to get into the zone and hack on some code is not going to thrive at a bank.
- easytiger 13y ago
  YEa i think the op is ignoring the value of domain knowledge

krzyk 13y ago

I'm also from Europe and in our country it's the contrary, one of the companies was few years ago advertising that they give developers salaries that are at least two country average. And that wasn't even in the capital (but a 2nd largest city). Here I think we are one of the best paid non-management people (apart from doctors/lawyers) Edit: Forgot to mention the country - Poland

draugadrotten 13y ago
I am from Europe but have friends in Ukraine among other places. In Ukraine, programmers are paid very well compared to the national average. So well paid that the 20-something programmers gets rockstar status with girls, and rockstar habits with vodka and drugs. This isn't very good for Ukraine startups.
- lkozma 13y ago
  > I am from Europe but have friends in Ukraine.. Ukraine is in Europe.
  - hnriot 13y ago
    Maybe geographically, but it's not in the EU and nobody in/from Europe or the Ukraine would ever say it's in Europe. Just like Russia is also geographically (at least in part) in Europe, but it's by no means European. Google (or books) are your friend :)
    - lkozma 13y ago
      I think your condescension is unnecessary, you know nothing about my reading (or Googling) habits. By any reasonable definition, Ukraine is in Eastern Europe, whether you use geographical, political or historical definitions. This is what Wikipedia says, as do most atlases and the CIA world factbook, in fact I've yet to see a source saying otherwise, but you can surely provide links to one. The EU is not the same as Europe, by that narrow definition, Switzerland is not Europe. Your statement that nobody in/from Europe or Ukraine would say it's in Europe can be disproved with a simple counterexample: I'm from/in Europe and I say so, just as a random sample of my Ukrainian acquaintances. No comment on Russia being "by no means" European. I guess you'll need to do a lot of Wikipedia editing to remove all references to Tolstoy from the pages on European literature.

Nursie 13y ago

They pay just fine in Australia. Of course the cost of living is alsop very high.

scotty79 13y ago
Best of both worlds. Live in small European country. Work remotely for Australian company.
fractalsea 13y ago
I also work in Australia (having come from UK after finishing my uni degree last year), and am already being paid $75k AUD (nearly £50k). For this reason I was shocked to see how low the salaries were for London, and working for an Australian company remote in England is what I'll aim to do in the future. Being here has been a great way to form connections.

tudorconstantin 13y ago

In Romania an entry level dev gets 30% more than the national average and that raises quickly. In 7-8 years he's able to earn 400%+ more than national average. And still be paid less than an entry level in UK. National average net income is about 400 euros

acchow 13y ago
Is this anecdotal or do you have data? If real, it's nice seeing the beginnings of programming jobs crossing arbitrary political lines.
- ThePawnBreak 13y ago
  I'm a Romanian student in Bucharest and tudorconstantin's claims seem on target. The average wage for an intern is 400 euros (based on what I hear from other students) and the starting salary after graduation is about 700 euros. Here are some internships with posted salary: http://4psa.stagiipebune.ro/stagii.html&id=1189&category=70 http://4psa.stagiipebune.ro/stagii.html&id=1189&cate... http://adobe.stagiipebune.ro/stagii.html&id=1241&category=71 http://adobe.stagiipebune.ro/stagii.html&id=1241&cat...
  - lgeek 13y ago
    Are those internships and jobs aimed at relatively competent students/grads? I'm asking because those salaries would have been considered quite low back in 2008 before I've emigrated.
- tudorconstantin 13y ago
  There is data regarding the national average net income - this article for example, from april 2012: http://www.romania-insider.com/average-salary-in-romania-almost-flat-in-february-biggest-rise-in-tobacco-industry/54699/ http://www.romania-insider.com/average-salary-in-romania-alm... Regarding payments to juniors and interns, I know it from the market - I know some salaries of my colleagues. When I started in IT - in 2006, I started with about 230 euros net, which was also decent. I am talking here about Cluj-Napoca (the second largest city in the country), not the capital, where salaries are better. So, if you want to live in a place and earn 4-5 times the national average income while doing what you like (programming), come to Romania :))

nilkn 13y ago

> For that matter, most places in the world outside the US (and Silicon Valley) tend not to pay software engineers very competitively. In the US, my experience is that software developers generally are paid competitively. CS and chemical engineering graduates routinely get the highest starting salaries all around the country when it comes to four year degrees. That starting salary may be $100k in Silicon Valley, $80k in Chicago, and $60k in Nashville, but all three numbers are competitive relative to the local market. In fact, you will find that in comparison to the cost of housing $100k in Silicon Valley is not quite as well paid as you think.

rmc 13y ago

I'm from Ireland, and the government's low tax approach is great for us workers. We get lots of bit US employers setting up here, and hence increasing the competition for developers.