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Holy crap. I am student in the UK, recently did a internship at a fairly well known company. Got paid £16k for that year. If I were to get a full time job, it w

Holy crap. I am student in the UK, recently did a internship at a fairly well known company. Got paid £16k for that year. If I were to get a full time job, it would be around ~30k a year. These figures are insane, people have told me in person this is what the figures are really like in SF but wow. I think applying for a couple of jobs in SF etc just for kicks will be one of goals when I finish uni. I know the term Web Developer has become a pretty broad term nowadays and maybe I am kidding myself when I think about a job at google or other SV or SF company, but what do they expect in terms of experience from a graduate? It would be great to talk to someone who has first hand experience with this, as mostly my knowledge is from reading blogs posts and such.

rcush 13y ago
Graduate software engineer jobs in the UK hit £30,000 at the very top end. From the experience of friends in the industry, £24,000-26,000 seems more realistic.
- vineel 13y ago
  Is this before or after taxes? Because American salaries are typically reported before taxes.
  - tharshan09 13y ago
    Yes before taxes. The 16k I reported was before. So I got roughly ~12k.
- objclxt 13y ago
  I wouldn't say 'very top end' - I've hired graduates for more than that. Not much more (£36k, I think, was the highest), but there's always flexibility.
- slevin8 13y ago
  I work as junior software engineer in central London and my salary is £26.000 before taxes. I think I am underpaid but there are a lot of benefits (gym, breakfast, friday lunch, office in Soho), so I can't complain.
  - hipstercode 13y ago
    In a similar situation to you, what is included in your role as a 'junior' if you don't mind me asking?
    - ollysb 13y ago
      A year after I graduated I got my first role in London at £27000 for a dev role (one above junior). This was an enterprise java role and in the first year I worked in a team of 3 building a custom CMS (it was a telecoms publishing house) and then a BI platform. My pay moved up fairly quickly over the years but I don't think I know even a CTO here who earns more than £90000. The SF salaries do sound crazy high.
      - justincormack 13y ago
        CTOs do get paid more than £90k here. Enterprise Java has fairly high supply of candidates, and often the companies do not value people much, so it is probably a low pay area.
    - slevin8 13y ago
      Well, let me clarify this. When I started I was just graduated and I came in London without actually speaking english. So, though I had some cool side projects, they couldn't offer me more. Now, things are completely different. I improved my language and most of all I improved my skill. In my role as a 'junior' I do the same job of my colleagues, the only difference is that they don't let me to lead a project, mainly because I am not yet able to properly speak with clients.
  - justincormack 13y ago
    That is low. It is hard to know what people mean by "junior" but you should expect to get a decent pay increase every year or more often really from that level.
  - ryanSrich 13y ago
    How? This always confused me. That's approaching the poverty line here in the U.S. For example: a standard McDonald's employee makes roughly $24,000 per year. This requires no education and just about anyone can do the work. It's also considered one of the lowest level jobs a person can get. I'm not degrading those people I'm just speaking on the status quo. Now take a look at a manager at McDonalds. They're approaching almost $40,000 per year. You're telling me that you make less than a McDonalds manager? A job which requires no education, and arguably no real skill beyond what's taught at work? This is absolutely insane to me that the pay is so low. How do you afford to eat? How do you afford health insurance or a car or rent? I know when I was working for $15 an hour ($28,800 per year) I had a hard time just paying the bills. The rent was always late and I had to drop my health insurance for a couple years. Do you not have student loans?
- Ives 13y ago
  In Belgium it's something like that too (for people with a master degree).
- Jabbles 13y ago
  I know that Cisco offers £36000.
  - Swannie 13y ago
    There are many, many programs at Cisco. I don't know any that offer that as an initial salary. There may be a "total benefits package" that, in theory, adds up to that.
- adventureloop 13y ago
  From my experience(graduated last year) the range people from my class took was 16-32k.
objclxt 13y ago
> It would be great to talk to someone who has first hand experience with this I'll give it a go! A few things you should be aware of to put what you're saying in context. Firstly, the cost of living in SF is incredibly high. Slightly higher than London, if you can believe it (that's not just my opinion - I was chatting to about half a dozen engineers who had been rebased from SF to London yesterday and they all agreed). Secondly, and this is probably the really important point, you need to actually get the visa. As somebody else has pointed out here, generally salaries for those on H1-B's skew a little lower. Also, it can be very difficult as a graduate to find someone willing to give you a H1-B. This isn't to say you shouldn't apply to jobs in SF when you finish uni - definitely do. It's just that the way the current system works, you could have the best job offer in the world and still have a 50:50 chance of not getting a visa in the lottery. Thirdly, as others have pointed out this is a somewhat self selecting poll. I graduated four years ago, I've worked in London all that time, and I'm on a salary comparable to the valley. I got quite lucky, because I was in a niche field when I started, but it's definitely possible. > when I think about a job at google or other SV or SF company, but what do they expect in terms of experience from a graduate? Here's the problem that you have: smaller companies / start-ups in SF - they're probably not going to be able to sponsor you for a visa. So you're somewhat limited in terms of places you can apply to in the first place. What are Google, Facebook, and the like looking for in graduates? Experience, sure, but incredible technical savvy. You're competing against US graduates from great schools: it can be very difficult. Remember that many companies (Google, Facebook, Twitter, and the like) have engineering offices in London. If you're wanting to move to the US you may find it much easier to look for an opportunity in the UK that could in the future allow you to move laterally. Please don't be discouraged by anything I've said - just don't make money the only reason for moving to SF, and you'll probably end up slightly disappointed.
- tharshan09 13y ago
  > Here's the problem that you have: smaller companies / start-ups in SF - they're probably not going to be able to sponsor you for a visa. So you're somewhat limited in terms of places you can apply to in the first place. What are Google, Facebook, and the like looking for in graduates? Experience, sure, but incredible technical savvy. You're competing against US graduates from great schools: it can be very difficult. Yep your are right and thats what worries me the most. That technical savvy'ness is what someone non-technical person may think of me, but to a SV employer maybe not? I find it hard to rank myself of where I stand at the moment. > Remember that many companies (Google, Facebook, Twitter, and the like) have engineering offices in London. If you're wanting to move to the US you may find it much easier to look for an opportunity in the UK that could in the future allow you to move laterally. Yep agreed. Its not that I have this long standing dreaming of living in SF or working in SV, I just feel that it would be a great opportunity, and a shame to not try. I feel that if I aim high and do not get it, alternatives cant be that bad. I will most def look for an opportunity in the UK before, but I am not keen on working in London because of having to commute everyday.
dmoy 13y ago
To answer this question you pose: >I know the term Web Developer has become a pretty broad term nowadays and maybe I am kidding myself when I think about a job at google or other SV or SF company, but what do they expect in terms of experience from a graduate? If you're talking about being a fresh graduate, the answer is that "Google or other SV company" will typically require zilch in the way of experience. Google, et al will have separate job postings for "recent graduates". The requirements are pretty bare. Since you mentioned Google: http://www.google.com/intl/en/jobs/students/tech/fulltime/uscanada/software-engineer-new-grad-2013-north-america.html http://www.google.com/intl/en/jobs/students/tech/fulltime/us... Other companies will be similar. Now whether you can get past the interviews (again, using Google as an example here): http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-job-at-google.html http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-job-at-goog...
- tharshan09 13y ago
  > If you're talking about being a fresh graduate, the answer is that "Google or other SV company" will typically require zilch in the way of experience. Google, et al will have separate job postings for "recent graduates". The requirements are pretty bare. The requirements never seem to reflect what you are tested on in an actual interview in one of those companies, as evidence of that blog post. However, yea in terms of experience they do not require that much - just a year in industry which is something most engineering/compsci uni courses's allow you to do. Thanks for the link, I will have a good read.
  - ceras 13y ago
    It's not an actual year. You can get a full time offer with only one summer internship (3 months experience) under your belt and nothing else.
olavgg 13y ago
They're really getting paid well in SF. Their living costs are maybe the highest in the US, but not in the world. I live in Stavanger ,Norway and have a salary around 75-80K USD, 40% of it goes to paying taxes. This is slightly above the average salary here for a software developer. My biggest living costs here is my apartment, and my car. My car (Rusty Mercedes C Class) from 1997 costs me around $8000 per year in gas, toll road, insurance, reparations/service. My small apartment, about 600 sqft in size costs today around 350 000 USD, I bought it two years ago for about 290 000 USD. Standard is good, but you have no chance finding anything around this size for less than 300 000 USD, if you're not willing to move hours with car away from Stavanger. Food and beer is also a lot more expensive. I may have free health care/insurance and 5 weeks with holiday, and cheap air tickets to London :) But that's about it. Every time I visit the US, I go shopping like a woman who just got her credit card. Clothes, shoes, sports wear & equipment costs only a third of what it costs in Norway. But I'm not complaining, because I'm doing fine here, though I would love to have sunnier and warmer weather. For me it sounds like the extremely high salaries in SF is becoming a bubble. Much like the oil industry here.
mratzloff 13y ago
San Francisco isn't the only place in the US that makes software, you know. Seattle is a great place to live, has better salaries than SF considering cost of living, and has a healthy startup culture.
- jsolson 13y ago
  Yes, I can highly recommend Seattle. This poll more or less confirmed for me that I'm living well above where I (likely) would be in SV by staying there.
  - lawnchair_larry 13y ago
    Don't blow up the spot. You're gonna ruin it for yourself. You forgot to mention the dreaded rain 6 months of the year. Cold, wet, miserable.
    - jsolson 13y ago
      Ah, right, yes. It's miserable here. Six months of hellish rain and steel grey skies. Don't let anyone fool you. Never move here. Worst mistake of my life.
- tharshan09 13y ago
  Guess I just need to find some contacts in Seattle then! Sorted :)
- sbilstein 13y ago
  Yea, true unless you hate clouds ;) I just moved to the Bay Area after two years in Seattle: great place, eh weather.
- crypto5 13y ago
  Just curious: and what is your estimation of salary ranges for Java SWE in Seattle? How many sexy start-ups/companies there(I think not too many). Can diff in salary between Seattle and SF be covered by $500-$1000 savings on apartment rent?

rcush 13y ago

Graduate software engineer jobs in the UK hit £30,000 at the very top end. From the experience of friends in the industry, £24,000-26,000 seems more realistic.

vineel 13y ago
Is this before or after taxes? Because American salaries are typically reported before taxes.
- tharshan09 13y ago
  Yes before taxes. The 16k I reported was before. So I got roughly ~12k.
objclxt 13y ago
I wouldn't say 'very top end' - I've hired graduates for more than that. Not much more (£36k, I think, was the highest), but there's always flexibility.
slevin8 13y ago
I work as junior software engineer in central London and my salary is £26.000 before taxes. I think I am underpaid but there are a lot of benefits (gym, breakfast, friday lunch, office in Soho), so I can't complain.
- hipstercode 13y ago
  In a similar situation to you, what is included in your role as a 'junior' if you don't mind me asking?
  - ollysb 13y ago
    A year after I graduated I got my first role in London at £27000 for a dev role (one above junior). This was an enterprise java role and in the first year I worked in a team of 3 building a custom CMS (it was a telecoms publishing house) and then a BI platform. My pay moved up fairly quickly over the years but I don't think I know even a CTO here who earns more than £90000. The SF salaries do sound crazy high.
    - justincormack 13y ago
      CTOs do get paid more than £90k here. Enterprise Java has fairly high supply of candidates, and often the companies do not value people much, so it is probably a low pay area.
  - slevin8 13y ago
    Well, let me clarify this. When I started I was just graduated and I came in London without actually speaking english. So, though I had some cool side projects, they couldn't offer me more. Now, things are completely different. I improved my language and most of all I improved my skill. In my role as a 'junior' I do the same job of my colleagues, the only difference is that they don't let me to lead a project, mainly because I am not yet able to properly speak with clients.
- justincormack 13y ago
  That is low. It is hard to know what people mean by "junior" but you should expect to get a decent pay increase every year or more often really from that level.
- ryanSrich 13y ago
  How? This always confused me. That's approaching the poverty line here in the U.S. For example: a standard McDonald's employee makes roughly $24,000 per year. This requires no education and just about anyone can do the work. It's also considered one of the lowest level jobs a person can get. I'm not degrading those people I'm just speaking on the status quo. Now take a look at a manager at McDonalds. They're approaching almost $40,000 per year. You're telling me that you make less than a McDonalds manager? A job which requires no education, and arguably no real skill beyond what's taught at work? This is absolutely insane to me that the pay is so low. How do you afford to eat? How do you afford health insurance or a car or rent? I know when I was working for $15 an hour ($28,800 per year) I had a hard time just paying the bills. The rent was always late and I had to drop my health insurance for a couple years. Do you not have student loans?
Ives 13y ago
In Belgium it's something like that too (for people with a master degree).
Jabbles 13y ago
I know that Cisco offers £36000.
- Swannie 13y ago
  There are many, many programs at Cisco. I don't know any that offer that as an initial salary. There may be a "total benefits package" that, in theory, adds up to that.
adventureloop 13y ago
From my experience(graduated last year) the range people from my class took was 16-32k.

objclxt 13y ago

> It would be great to talk to someone who has first hand experience with this I'll give it a go! A few things you should be aware of to put what you're saying in context. Firstly, the cost of living in SF is incredibly high. Slightly higher than London, if you can believe it (that's not just my opinion - I was chatting to about half a dozen engineers who had been rebased from SF to London yesterday and they all agreed). Secondly, and this is probably the really important point, you need to actually get the visa. As somebody else has pointed out here, generally salaries for those on H1-B's skew a little lower. Also, it can be very difficult as a graduate to find someone willing to give you a H1-B. This isn't to say you shouldn't apply to jobs in SF when you finish uni - definitely do. It's just that the way the current system works, you could have the best job offer in the world and still have a 50:50 chance of not getting a visa in the lottery. Thirdly, as others have pointed out this is a somewhat self selecting poll. I graduated four years ago, I've worked in London all that time, and I'm on a salary comparable to the valley. I got quite lucky, because I was in a niche field when I started, but it's definitely possible. > when I think about a job at google or other SV or SF company, but what do they expect in terms of experience from a graduate? Here's the problem that you have: smaller companies / start-ups in SF - they're probably not going to be able to sponsor you for a visa. So you're somewhat limited in terms of places you can apply to in the first place. What are Google, Facebook, and the like looking for in graduates? Experience, sure, but incredible technical savvy. You're competing against US graduates from great schools: it can be very difficult. Remember that many companies (Google, Facebook, Twitter, and the like) have engineering offices in London. If you're wanting to move to the US you may find it much easier to look for an opportunity in the UK that could in the future allow you to move laterally. Please don't be discouraged by anything I've said - just don't make money the only reason for moving to SF, and you'll probably end up slightly disappointed.

tharshan09 13y ago
> Here's the problem that you have: smaller companies / start-ups in SF - they're probably not going to be able to sponsor you for a visa. So you're somewhat limited in terms of places you can apply to in the first place. What are Google, Facebook, and the like looking for in graduates? Experience, sure, but incredible technical savvy. You're competing against US graduates from great schools: it can be very difficult. Yep your are right and thats what worries me the most. That technical savvy'ness is what someone non-technical person may think of me, but to a SV employer maybe not? I find it hard to rank myself of where I stand at the moment. > Remember that many companies (Google, Facebook, Twitter, and the like) have engineering offices in London. If you're wanting to move to the US you may find it much easier to look for an opportunity in the UK that could in the future allow you to move laterally. Yep agreed. Its not that I have this long standing dreaming of living in SF or working in SV, I just feel that it would be a great opportunity, and a shame to not try. I feel that if I aim high and do not get it, alternatives cant be that bad. I will most def look for an opportunity in the UK before, but I am not keen on working in London because of having to commute everyday.

dmoy 13y ago

To answer this question you pose: >I know the term Web Developer has become a pretty broad term nowadays and maybe I am kidding myself when I think about a job at google or other SV or SF company, but what do they expect in terms of experience from a graduate? If you're talking about being a fresh graduate, the answer is that "Google or other SV company" will typically require zilch in the way of experience. Google, et al will have separate job postings for "recent graduates". The requirements are pretty bare. Since you mentioned Google: http://www.google.com/intl/en/jobs/students/tech/fulltime/uscanada/software-engineer-new-grad-2013-north-america.html http://www.google.com/intl/en/jobs/students/tech/fulltime/us... Other companies will be similar. Now whether you can get past the interviews (again, using Google as an example here): http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-job-at-google.html http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-job-at-goog...

tharshan09 13y ago
> If you're talking about being a fresh graduate, the answer is that "Google or other SV company" will typically require zilch in the way of experience. Google, et al will have separate job postings for "recent graduates". The requirements are pretty bare. The requirements never seem to reflect what you are tested on in an actual interview in one of those companies, as evidence of that blog post. However, yea in terms of experience they do not require that much - just a year in industry which is something most engineering/compsci uni courses's allow you to do. Thanks for the link, I will have a good read.
- ceras 13y ago
  It's not an actual year. You can get a full time offer with only one summer internship (3 months experience) under your belt and nothing else.

olavgg 13y ago

They're really getting paid well in SF. Their living costs are maybe the highest in the US, but not in the world. I live in Stavanger ,Norway and have a salary around 75-80K USD, 40% of it goes to paying taxes. This is slightly above the average salary here for a software developer. My biggest living costs here is my apartment, and my car. My car (Rusty Mercedes C Class) from 1997 costs me around $8000 per year in gas, toll road, insurance, reparations/service. My small apartment, about 600 sqft in size costs today around 350 000 USD, I bought it two years ago for about 290 000 USD. Standard is good, but you have no chance finding anything around this size for less than 300 000 USD, if you're not willing to move hours with car away from Stavanger. Food and beer is also a lot more expensive. I may have free health care/insurance and 5 weeks with holiday, and cheap air tickets to London :) But that's about it. Every time I visit the US, I go shopping like a woman who just got her credit card. Clothes, shoes, sports wear & equipment costs only a third of what it costs in Norway. But I'm not complaining, because I'm doing fine here, though I would love to have sunnier and warmer weather. For me it sounds like the extremely high salaries in SF is becoming a bubble. Much like the oil industry here.

mratzloff 13y ago

San Francisco isn't the only place in the US that makes software, you know. Seattle is a great place to live, has better salaries than SF considering cost of living, and has a healthy startup culture.

jsolson 13y ago
Yes, I can highly recommend Seattle. This poll more or less confirmed for me that I'm living well above where I (likely) would be in SV by staying there.
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  Don't blow up the spot. You're gonna ruin it for yourself. You forgot to mention the dreaded rain 6 months of the year. Cold, wet, miserable.
  - jsolson 13y ago
    Ah, right, yes. It's miserable here. Six months of hellish rain and steel grey skies. Don't let anyone fool you. Never move here. Worst mistake of my life.
tharshan09 13y ago
Guess I just need to find some contacts in Seattle then! Sorted :)
sbilstein 13y ago
Yea, true unless you hate clouds ;) I just moved to the Bay Area after two years in Seattle: great place, eh weather.
crypto5 13y ago
Just curious: and what is your estimation of salary ranges for Java SWE in Seattle? How many sexy start-ups/companies there(I think not too many). Can diff in salary between Seattle and SF be covered by $500-$1000 savings on apartment rent?