6 ms·

If you had absolutely no idea for what kind of salaries people got around here, then this data would be useful. Is it $25k or $250k? This can answer that questi

If you had absolutely no idea for what kind of salaries people got around here, then this data would be useful. Is it $25k or $250k? This can answer that question. But what people are really interested in is "is $125k high or low" and this data is useless for answering that question. It is worse than useless because it may lead you to believe something that isn't true and think you have a valid reason for believing it. It's worse to know something that isn't true than to correctly know what you don't know.

skrebbel 13y ago
This. Now, I don't actually understand statistics at all, so please correct me if I'm missing something, but as a European I find this poll pretty telling, and a good indication of what to expect if I'd consider moving to the Valley. Clearly, at least the maker of the poll seems to assume that I can expect to earn at least $80k-ish. I earn a bit over half that now. This is a very big difference. Additionally, given that most people in this poll earn well over $100k, and I'm a pretty experienced programmer, this poll teaches me that asking for, say $120k, at an SV company, isn't an odd request. People won't frown or laugh at me. They might not want to pay me that, and just as well I might be undercharging, but it's not out of the question. Can I draw these conclusions? If not, why not?
- zobzu 13y ago
  You get paid a little lower if you're going on visa, so its more like 100-110kish. I spose the 300k ppl are the ceos! (yeh, i wish haha)
  - skrebbel 13y ago
    Could you explain that? Why would companies pay less to people on visas?
    - joshAg 13y ago
      because h1b visas require you to stay employed (you have like 30 days before they deport you) and they require you to keep the same job title throughout the whole greencard process or your waiting period starts over.
      - g0lden 13y ago
        So if you were to get a promotion at your current job, the entire process would essentially start over? Why is that?
        hpagey 13y ago
        no it won't. According to my understanding this is what happens a) if you have applied for 485 and it has been 6 months since you applied you invoke AC21 and you are done. b) if you have not applied for 485, your new company will have to reapply for 1-140 and labor for the new position but you do not lose your place in the queue as your PD is ported from your previous application.
        joshAg 13y ago
        it depends on the promotion. the ac21 stipulates "New employment must be the 'same or similar' occupational classification". According to my coworkers, that means they can't get promoted to management from dev/qa. http://immigrationroad.com/green-card/ac21-portability-change-jobs.php http://immigrationroad.com/green-card/ac21-portability-chang...
      - lttlrck 13y ago
        Thats not completely true. I've been promoted while still on H1B and had a pay rise. The procedures need to be followed. Position and pay can also change in preparation for GC, this is quite normal.
      - hpagey 13y ago
        The later part of the above statement is an incorrect. You can change a job while your green card is being processed provided, a) You have applied for your 485. b) Its been 180 days since you have applied for it. This process is called invoking AC21. In my opinion and experience H1B candidates are paid on par with other candidates. I saw no salary discrimination at least with decent and reputed companies. I agree H1b is exploited by some companies but those are typically consulting or outsourcing companies.
    - smartician 13y ago
      Someone making 60k in Europe is more likely to accept an offer of 100k, even when the going market rate for that position is 120k.
    - zobzu 13y ago
      It cost about 20k for most "big" companies to move you, between visa costs, move costs, etc. Then, they know you're going to accept a lower salary and they have no reason to propose you more - companies almost always propose you the minimum that sounds serious. You'll raise it a bit and leave it at that, or at least that's what is expected. most young engineers (h1b target) are paid much less than in the valley, so given the quality of life, the adventure, etc - AND that the salary is anyway higher, they know very few will refuse.
- joshz 13y ago
  For you there's an additional tool. Salaries for sponsored persons is public data. http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm
- mistermumble 13y ago
  I think you can draw those conclusions: if you move here you can expect to double your current salary. Not covered by the poll is the fact that your living expenses will likely more than double, especially if you have to use a car to get to your job. Your vacation time will be cut in half. Health care expenses may rise. Bottom line is be prepared for some decline in your current standard of living. At the same time, you have the possibility of lottery-style winnings if your employer becomes the next Facebook. Hmm, perhaps you might be better off buying a real lottery ticket.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    Health care costs may rise? Where is more expensive than the US? I'm not being facetious as you may have something in mind - what situation do you imagine where it would get cheaper by moving to the US?
    - dredmorbius 13y ago
      If you don't have to make use of your health care, then the primary cost would be increased healthcare premiums. Which are largely borne by the employer. So, while the actual expense would be higher, it's also rolled into (and already accounted for) by your increased salary. Now, if you require treatment and have come from a more civilized place (e.g., much of the rest of the civilized world), you're in for, shall we say, a real treat.
  - ivix 13y ago
    Why will living costs double? Cars and fuel are just as cheap and sv housing costs are pretty close to London averages for example.
    - tekacs 13y ago
      Fuel is indeed rather more expensive in Europe (certainly UK, plus single person's sample abroad). :/
      - 13y ago
- T-hawk 13y ago
  Statistically speaking, you can draw the conclusion that your salary is substantially lower than typical of people who responded to this poll. You can't draw any conclusion about your salary in relation to the overall market, because the poll respondents are not randomly distributed among the population of the overall market and you have no information about the demographics of who chose to respond. But if you drop the strict statistical sense and just look at the results with common-sense realism, yes you can figure that the poll generally reflects the broad reality and aiming for the middle of the poll range would be reasonable to request. The people shooting down the first line of thinking are being pedantic about statistical rigor and the meaning of a conclusion. The poll is not statistically reliable because the sampling is not truly random, and it's not at all useful for making fine-grained distinctions between $120k and $125k. They are right, but you can ignore them and apply common sense for broad realistic purposes. The median salary in Silicon Valley is clearly not $40k.
- pcrh 13y ago
  As a European, and depending on both your personal circumstances and the European country you live in, you should also ensure you adjust for non-salary items, such as healthcare, childcare, education, unemployment insurance, etc. For most people, a US salary needs to be approx 50% higher than a German or Swiss one, for example, to accommodate these additional factors.

skrebbel 13y ago

This. Now, I don't actually understand statistics at all, so please correct me if I'm missing something, but as a European I find this poll pretty telling, and a good indication of what to expect if I'd consider moving to the Valley. Clearly, at least the maker of the poll seems to assume that I can expect to earn at least $80k-ish. I earn a bit over half that now. This is a very big difference. Additionally, given that most people in this poll earn well over $100k, and I'm a pretty experienced programmer, this poll teaches me that asking for, say $120k, at an SV company, isn't an odd request. People won't frown or laugh at me. They might not want to pay me that, and just as well I might be undercharging, but it's not out of the question. Can I draw these conclusions? If not, why not?

zobzu 13y ago
You get paid a little lower if you're going on visa, so its more like 100-110kish. I spose the 300k ppl are the ceos! (yeh, i wish haha)
- skrebbel 13y ago
  Could you explain that? Why would companies pay less to people on visas?
  - joshAg 13y ago
    because h1b visas require you to stay employed (you have like 30 days before they deport you) and they require you to keep the same job title throughout the whole greencard process or your waiting period starts over.
    - g0lden 13y ago
      So if you were to get a promotion at your current job, the entire process would essentially start over? Why is that?
      - hpagey 13y ago
        no it won't. According to my understanding this is what happens a) if you have applied for 485 and it has been 6 months since you applied you invoke AC21 and you are done. b) if you have not applied for 485, your new company will have to reapply for 1-140 and labor for the new position but you do not lose your place in the queue as your PD is ported from your previous application.
      - joshAg 13y ago
        it depends on the promotion. the ac21 stipulates "New employment must be the 'same or similar' occupational classification". According to my coworkers, that means they can't get promoted to management from dev/qa. http://immigrationroad.com/green-card/ac21-portability-change-jobs.php http://immigrationroad.com/green-card/ac21-portability-chang...
    - lttlrck 13y ago
      Thats not completely true. I've been promoted while still on H1B and had a pay rise. The procedures need to be followed. Position and pay can also change in preparation for GC, this is quite normal.
    - hpagey 13y ago
      The later part of the above statement is an incorrect. You can change a job while your green card is being processed provided, a) You have applied for your 485. b) Its been 180 days since you have applied for it. This process is called invoking AC21. In my opinion and experience H1B candidates are paid on par with other candidates. I saw no salary discrimination at least with decent and reputed companies. I agree H1b is exploited by some companies but those are typically consulting or outsourcing companies.
  - smartician 13y ago
    Someone making 60k in Europe is more likely to accept an offer of 100k, even when the going market rate for that position is 120k.
  - zobzu 13y ago
    It cost about 20k for most "big" companies to move you, between visa costs, move costs, etc. Then, they know you're going to accept a lower salary and they have no reason to propose you more - companies almost always propose you the minimum that sounds serious. You'll raise it a bit and leave it at that, or at least that's what is expected. most young engineers (h1b target) are paid much less than in the valley, so given the quality of life, the adventure, etc - AND that the salary is anyway higher, they know very few will refuse.
joshz 13y ago
For you there's an additional tool. Salaries for sponsored persons is public data. http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm
mistermumble 13y ago
I think you can draw those conclusions: if you move here you can expect to double your current salary. Not covered by the poll is the fact that your living expenses will likely more than double, especially if you have to use a car to get to your job. Your vacation time will be cut in half. Health care expenses may rise. Bottom line is be prepared for some decline in your current standard of living. At the same time, you have the possibility of lottery-style winnings if your employer becomes the next Facebook. Hmm, perhaps you might be better off buying a real lottery ticket.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  Health care costs may rise? Where is more expensive than the US? I'm not being facetious as you may have something in mind - what situation do you imagine where it would get cheaper by moving to the US?
  - dredmorbius 13y ago
    If you don't have to make use of your health care, then the primary cost would be increased healthcare premiums. Which are largely borne by the employer. So, while the actual expense would be higher, it's also rolled into (and already accounted for) by your increased salary. Now, if you require treatment and have come from a more civilized place (e.g., much of the rest of the civilized world), you're in for, shall we say, a real treat.
- ivix 13y ago
  Why will living costs double? Cars and fuel are just as cheap and sv housing costs are pretty close to London averages for example.
  - tekacs 13y ago
    Fuel is indeed rather more expensive in Europe (certainly UK, plus single person's sample abroad). :/
    - 13y ago
T-hawk 13y ago
Statistically speaking, you can draw the conclusion that your salary is substantially lower than typical of people who responded to this poll. You can't draw any conclusion about your salary in relation to the overall market, because the poll respondents are not randomly distributed among the population of the overall market and you have no information about the demographics of who chose to respond. But if you drop the strict statistical sense and just look at the results with common-sense realism, yes you can figure that the poll generally reflects the broad reality and aiming for the middle of the poll range would be reasonable to request. The people shooting down the first line of thinking are being pedantic about statistical rigor and the meaning of a conclusion. The poll is not statistically reliable because the sampling is not truly random, and it's not at all useful for making fine-grained distinctions between $120k and $125k. They are right, but you can ignore them and apply common sense for broad realistic purposes. The median salary in Silicon Valley is clearly not $40k.
pcrh 13y ago
As a European, and depending on both your personal circumstances and the European country you live in, you should also ensure you adjust for non-salary items, such as healthcare, childcare, education, unemployment insurance, etc. For most people, a US salary needs to be approx 50% higher than a German or Swiss one, for example, to accommodate these additional factors.