5 ms·

For phones to function they have to talk to cellular towers continuously. You can triangulate a location based on the chatter. Phone companies also keep detaile

For phones to function they have to talk to cellular towers continuously. You can triangulate a location based on the chatter. Phone companies also keep detailed logs.

reedlaw 13y ago
What about being made into listening devices? That would require turning on the microphone and transmitting the signal without the user noticing. Is that possible?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- NegativeK 13y ago
  It is possible, and it is done. I believe American law enforcement needs a warrant to do it.
- ekr 13y ago
  All your data (conversations, text messages etc) goes through the network, and those network operators can easily access it. It's just the same with ISPs though. I don't know if that's what he meant by 'listening devices'. In any way, a lot of these statements make a lot of sense for many citizens in different parts of the world (China etc), where there's a corrupt government and a suppressed freedom of speech. For an US citizen I suppose they may be exaggerated. But I share many of his views, and he obviously deserves a lot more respect than some people show towards him. EDIT. And of course, if it's running non-free software the cell phone can easily be made to transmit microphone data without the user noticing.
- belorn 13y ago
  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_listening_device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_listening_device. Most phones can be remotely updated with software by the carrier, and the GSM protocol allows for remote update of the firmware.
  - reedlaw 13y ago
    What if you have a stock Android, like a Nexus or a rooted phone?
    - belorn 13y ago
      To my understanding, the GSM firmware can be remotely updated through the GSM protocol. If such firmware update has access to the memory, it can then do any type of exploits including accessing the microphone. Through I suspect there are much easier methods, such as attacking the software stack itself like: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/woot12/woot12-final24.pdf https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/woot12/woot12...
    - tmzt 13y ago
      Unless you block, modify or disable certain daemons, any Android device can be told to update the radio firmware by the carrier. This is called FOTA, firmware over the air. As an aside, when I was porting Linux to the Motorola Q I realized I could easily turn off the display and key backlight and turn on the microphone and camera though the sysfs,this would appear to anyone as if the phone was off but I could remotely control it (SSH tunnel) and capture audio and video. The only problem would be the heat, but someone would likely assume it was used for a while before powering it off. This without any low-level firmware change, just booting GNU/linux ;) from HaRET.
- IvyMike 13y ago
  I think RMS is making a deep point about the ability to trust what your device is showing you when it's encumbered with non-open software, firmware, and hardware. I think a clever surveillance agency with inside access to the guts of the phone could make it very, very hard to detect.
- Jach 13y ago
  I don't think it would be that difficult to do without the user noticing. Even taking a photo or video wouldn't be noticed by a lot of people... I'm reminded of http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/rat-breeders-meet-the-men-who-spy-on-women-through-their-webcams/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/rat-breeders-meet... The question is can they do it to everyone frequently, including the handful of super-nerds out there who love tracing every operation their devices do and can be certain they don't have some sort of malware? While I don't see the capability as technologically infeasible, I do think it would be noticed sooner or later if it was always-on. If such a feature does exist, then it would have to be used sparingly on targeted individuals, and even then if it was used to incriminate them such evidence would have to come up in court (unless they all get the s/Gitmo/secret prison/ treatment, a big assumption!) and then the world would know such features exist. Presently I think traditional manners of evidence-gathering are probably sufficient and people publicly leak all sorts of data (or have a lot of data logged that can be subpena'd) -- plus every now and again we hear about some nerd (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5194489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5194489) reporting they have been bugged. Some people think the CPUs of Intel et al. have backdoors in them, but if so, there'd be no need to bug computers. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence... so I don't really take the government backdoors in everything by default too seriously. I'd need some sort of evidence showing their existence to change my mind.
  - hkolek 13y ago
    > I'd need some sort of evidence showing their existence to change my mind. Here you go, seems pretty well sourced: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_listening_device#Remotely_activated_mobile_phone_microphones http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_listening_device#Remotel... Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
    - Jach 13y ago
      Thanks for those, updated. It's also nice to see that it works as I would expect: the software isn't there by default but if the government wants you in particular, they can legally coerce the phone companies to install the software without you knowing and use that evidence in a trial.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- revelation 13y ago
  It is possible. You need to remember that in a modern mobile phone, there are two high powered processors, the baseband processor and the application processor, communicating only over a very very high level protocol. The application processor runs Android or iOS (or Windows Phone), the baseband processor a propietary RTOS or similar embedded system. The problem boils down to this: baseband (the chip doing the GSM, LTE, .. communication) processors are completely propietary. There is no source for the software running on them, it's a big binary blob. And the other big problem is that baseband processors have become a hub for any analog processing. They run the GPS chip and they are the DSP for the microphones. Combine access to all vital systems and the primary communication link, and business practices in the big, sometimes partially government owned, companies producing the software for these chips.. it makes for an explosive mixture in a "mobile first" world. Recommended talks: http://vimeo.com/25806106 http://vimeo.com/25806106 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1lYU0VMCoY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1lYU0VMCoY

For phones to function they have to talk to cellular towers continuously. You can triangulate a location based on the chatter. Phone companies also keep detailed logs.

reedlaw 13y ago

What about being made into listening devices? That would require turning on the microphone and transmitting the signal without the user noticing. Is that possible?

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
NegativeK 13y ago
It is possible, and it is done. I believe American law enforcement needs a warrant to do it.
ekr 13y ago
All your data (conversations, text messages etc) goes through the network, and those network operators can easily access it. It's just the same with ISPs though. I don't know if that's what he meant by 'listening devices'. In any way, a lot of these statements make a lot of sense for many citizens in different parts of the world (China etc), where there's a corrupt government and a suppressed freedom of speech. For an US citizen I suppose they may be exaggerated. But I share many of his views, and he obviously deserves a lot more respect than some people show towards him. EDIT. And of course, if it's running non-free software the cell phone can easily be made to transmit microphone data without the user noticing.
belorn 13y ago
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_listening_device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_listening_device. Most phones can be remotely updated with software by the carrier, and the GSM protocol allows for remote update of the firmware.
- reedlaw 13y ago
  What if you have a stock Android, like a Nexus or a rooted phone?
  - belorn 13y ago
    To my understanding, the GSM firmware can be remotely updated through the GSM protocol. If such firmware update has access to the memory, it can then do any type of exploits including accessing the microphone. Through I suspect there are much easier methods, such as attacking the software stack itself like: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/woot12/woot12-final24.pdf https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/woot12/woot12...
  - tmzt 13y ago
    Unless you block, modify or disable certain daemons, any Android device can be told to update the radio firmware by the carrier. This is called FOTA, firmware over the air. As an aside, when I was porting Linux to the Motorola Q I realized I could easily turn off the display and key backlight and turn on the microphone and camera though the sysfs,this would appear to anyone as if the phone was off but I could remotely control it (SSH tunnel) and capture audio and video. The only problem would be the heat, but someone would likely assume it was used for a while before powering it off. This without any low-level firmware change, just booting GNU/linux ;) from HaRET.
IvyMike 13y ago
I think RMS is making a deep point about the ability to trust what your device is showing you when it's encumbered with non-open software, firmware, and hardware. I think a clever surveillance agency with inside access to the guts of the phone could make it very, very hard to detect.
Jach 13y ago
I don't think it would be that difficult to do without the user noticing. Even taking a photo or video wouldn't be noticed by a lot of people... I'm reminded of http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/rat-breeders-meet-the-men-who-spy-on-women-through-their-webcams/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/rat-breeders-meet... The question is can they do it to everyone frequently, including the handful of super-nerds out there who love tracing every operation their devices do and can be certain they don't have some sort of malware? While I don't see the capability as technologically infeasible, I do think it would be noticed sooner or later if it was always-on. If such a feature does exist, then it would have to be used sparingly on targeted individuals, and even then if it was used to incriminate them such evidence would have to come up in court (unless they all get the s/Gitmo/secret prison/ treatment, a big assumption!) and then the world would know such features exist. Presently I think traditional manners of evidence-gathering are probably sufficient and people publicly leak all sorts of data (or have a lot of data logged that can be subpena'd) -- plus every now and again we hear about some nerd (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5194489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5194489) reporting they have been bugged. Some people think the CPUs of Intel et al. have backdoors in them, but if so, there'd be no need to bug computers. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence... so I don't really take the government backdoors in everything by default too seriously. I'd need some sort of evidence showing their existence to change my mind.
- hkolek 13y ago
  > I'd need some sort of evidence showing their existence to change my mind. Here you go, seems pretty well sourced: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_listening_device#Remotely_activated_mobile_phone_microphones http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_listening_device#Remotel... Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
  - Jach 13y ago
    Thanks for those, updated. It's also nice to see that it works as I would expect: the software isn't there by default but if the government wants you in particular, they can legally coerce the phone companies to install the software without you knowing and use that evidence in a trial.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
revelation 13y ago
It is possible. You need to remember that in a modern mobile phone, there are two high powered processors, the baseband processor and the application processor, communicating only over a very very high level protocol. The application processor runs Android or iOS (or Windows Phone), the baseband processor a propietary RTOS or similar embedded system. The problem boils down to this: baseband (the chip doing the GSM, LTE, .. communication) processors are completely propietary. There is no source for the software running on them, it's a big binary blob. And the other big problem is that baseband processors have become a hub for any analog processing. They run the GPS chip and they are the DSP for the microphones. Combine access to all vital systems and the primary communication link, and business practices in the big, sometimes partially government owned, companies producing the software for these chips.. it makes for an explosive mixture in a "mobile first" world. Recommended talks: http://vimeo.com/25806106 http://vimeo.com/25806106 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1lYU0VMCoY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1lYU0VMCoY