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> If?!?! Your expectations have no relation to reality. Whose reality? Seeing people taking newborns to malls makes me feel very uncomfortable. I know cultures

> If?!?! Your expectations have no relation to reality. Whose reality? Seeing people taking newborns to malls makes me feel very uncomfortable. I know cultures where people keep their babies at home for the first few months. > 2) If you are knowingly making the decision to be a greater risk, then you are being reckless and should be considered liable for the outcome. Sorry, but that's just nonsense. Deciding to not get vaccinated is not deciding to be a greater risk, but in the first place a decision against a specific treatment for the personal body. Especially if this treatment has its own risks. Calling someone reckless for deciding against a specific medical treatment is simply impertinent.

jlgreco 13y ago
>Whose reality? The reality of western life. The reality where both genders are in the workplace and where people visit the homes of others. The reality where single parents are plentiful and where both parents working is common. You could perversely wish all of these things were not so, but that would not change the nature of reality. This is absurd before we even get into the fact that it is not only newborns that benifit from herd immunity... > Deciding to not get vaccinated is not deciding to be a greater risk Of course it is. It is empirically.
- lignuist 13y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_cont...
btilly 13y ago
You are still not facing facts. We give babies the MMR vaccine at 12-15 months. I do not know of any cultures where 10 month olds are kept indoors. And even if YOU think that OTHERS should do so to protect them from YOUR BAD DECISIONS, the fact is that they do not. Furthermore babies of that age get sick. (In fact for their long-term health it is good that a baby gets a serious cold in their first year, it helps their immune system out.) And sick babies will go to the pediatrician. Where, inevitably, you'll find other sick kids. Let's take a real near miss. In 2008 in San Diego a 10 month old baby boy (too young for the measles vaccine) went to the pediatrician where there was a kid with measles. The baby, too young for a vaccine, spent 3 days in the hospital, and the parents had to take a month off from work to nurse him back to health. You can verify these details at http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20100322/vaccination-choice-affects-other-kids-too http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20100322/vaccination.... So what are your expectations? That 10 month old babies be kept inside? That babies not go to the pediatrician for fear that your decisions will put their lives at risk? Now let me turn it around. Were I on a jury and Megan Campbell was suing YOU for her child's suffering, her hospital bills, and her lost wages accrued due to YOU NOT FOLLOWING STANDARD MEDICAL ADVICE, I'd support her side. If her baby had died and it was a criminal trial, I know that I'd be entirely in favor of a manslaughter charge against you. And your protestations that people with young children should keep up a good enough bubble would not endear you to me at all. Because I'm a parent, I know how hard parents work at it, and I know that the kind of bubble you're recommending is essentially impossible for real working families to do.
- lignuist 13y ago
  I can understand your sentiment, but basically you are the one who tries to create a risk-free bubble for your children by forcing others to take risks for themselves. So before asking me to face facts, please check your own view: if you want a risk free environment for your children, then you actually have to create such a bubble. It's the only way. Even if you convinced me, there will always be unvaccinated people possibly endangering your kids. Reality. As long as you ignore the possible risks of vaccination itself, accusing me of manslaughter due to accepting the risk of infection is simply ridiculous. If my child died from vaccination would it be manslaughter by the doctor, or maybe by you, because you told me I should take the risk of vaccination? Google for "died from vaccination" and you will find tons of cases. Is dying from vaccination any better than dying from an infection? Asking me to take risks, to lower your risks, is just not ok. If we were talking about someone who is knowingly infected (like Typhoid Mary), then there is a completely different situation. I agree that such people should be forced into quarantine. Relating avoidance of vaccination to manslaughter is like relating not installing cameras to terrorism: BS.

jlgreco 13y ago

>Whose reality? The reality of western life. The reality where both genders are in the workplace and where people visit the homes of others. The reality where single parents are plentiful and where both parents working is common. You could perversely wish all of these things were not so, but that would not change the nature of reality. This is absurd before we even get into the fact that it is not only newborns that benifit from herd immunity... > Deciding to not get vaccinated is not deciding to be a greater risk Of course it is. It is empirically.

lignuist 13y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_cont...

btilly 13y ago

You are still not facing facts. We give babies the MMR vaccine at 12-15 months. I do not know of any cultures where 10 month olds are kept indoors. And even if YOU think that OTHERS should do so to protect them from YOUR BAD DECISIONS, the fact is that they do not. Furthermore babies of that age get sick. (In fact for their long-term health it is good that a baby gets a serious cold in their first year, it helps their immune system out.) And sick babies will go to the pediatrician. Where, inevitably, you'll find other sick kids. Let's take a real near miss. In 2008 in San Diego a 10 month old baby boy (too young for the measles vaccine) went to the pediatrician where there was a kid with measles. The baby, too young for a vaccine, spent 3 days in the hospital, and the parents had to take a month off from work to nurse him back to health. You can verify these details at http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20100322/vaccination-choice-affects-other-kids-too http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20100322/vaccination.... So what are your expectations? That 10 month old babies be kept inside? That babies not go to the pediatrician for fear that your decisions will put their lives at risk? Now let me turn it around. Were I on a jury and Megan Campbell was suing YOU for her child's suffering, her hospital bills, and her lost wages accrued due to YOU NOT FOLLOWING STANDARD MEDICAL ADVICE, I'd support her side. If her baby had died and it was a criminal trial, I know that I'd be entirely in favor of a manslaughter charge against you. And your protestations that people with young children should keep up a good enough bubble would not endear you to me at all. Because I'm a parent, I know how hard parents work at it, and I know that the kind of bubble you're recommending is essentially impossible for real working families to do.

lignuist 13y ago
I can understand your sentiment, but basically you are the one who tries to create a risk-free bubble for your children by forcing others to take risks for themselves. So before asking me to face facts, please check your own view: if you want a risk free environment for your children, then you actually have to create such a bubble. It's the only way. Even if you convinced me, there will always be unvaccinated people possibly endangering your kids. Reality. As long as you ignore the possible risks of vaccination itself, accusing me of manslaughter due to accepting the risk of infection is simply ridiculous. If my child died from vaccination would it be manslaughter by the doctor, or maybe by you, because you told me I should take the risk of vaccination? Google for "died from vaccination" and you will find tons of cases. Is dying from vaccination any better than dying from an infection? Asking me to take risks, to lower your risks, is just not ok. If we were talking about someone who is knowingly infected (like Typhoid Mary), then there is a completely different situation. I agree that such people should be forced into quarantine. Relating avoidance of vaccination to manslaughter is like relating not installing cameras to terrorism: BS.