4 ms·

It seems silly to ignore stock and bonuses. My base salary is only ~$150k, but with stock and bonuses I'll make over $260k this year (Google). Would this compar

It seems silly to ignore stock and bonuses. My base salary is only ~$150k, but with stock and bonuses I'll make over $260k this year (Google). Would this compare with a job that also gives a $150k salary but nothing else?

kanzure 13y ago
I was trying to avoid people voting based on "fun bucks" from startups eager to promise you the world. Maybe in future polls it could say "liquid" compensation only, instead of base? Liquid assets would mean cash, or even shares traded on the open market. Thing is, other polls included non-base compensation, and the opposite argument gets brought up. But yeah, let's try liquid next time. Also: this is exactly the class of anecdote I was hoping to hear today. Thanks. Maybe I should go respond to that Google recruiter that keeps emailing me..
- gohrt 13y ago
  Startups have a well-documented value based on financing they have raised. They have x% stake, and some investors have paid y% for a z% stake. The mystery is simply in the volatility of future value. Second market tradable shares and public company shares are easily valued. Anything else has an average value of <$10K, based on a sampling of actual new-startup performance.
covi 13y ago
Mind sharing some basic background info? Years of experience / education would help add context.
- lefthander 13y ago
  I don't want to share too much. A few years out of undergrad.
ashray 13y ago
Congrats! That sounds like a great compensation package. I'm just trying to understand though how does tax effect the overall amount that you eventually earn ? Does it come down by 35% or 40% or does it depend on when you decide to cash out your capital gains (for the stock part..) ?
- lefthander 13y ago
  Yes, my net taxes are roughly in that range.
- gohrt 13y ago
  Stock grants are taxed as ordinary income, based on market price (or estimated value, for pre-IPO) on the day of vest.
  - encoderer 13y ago
    If it's pre-ipo it's often a qualified options plan and not RSUs. In many pre-ipo cases you would be taxed only on capital gains.
lefthander2 13y ago
My base salary is $220k; this year my bonus plus equity will be around $200k, so my total compensation will be over $400k. I've been out for a number of years, and the bonus plus stock is performance based, and of course the value of the stock compensation may change depending on the future direction of Google stock --- it's climbed very nicely since the beginning of the year! The main point is that ignoring the stock and bonus portion of the compensation leaves a huge portion of the story missing. And stock at a publicly traded company, whether it's Amazon, Facebook, Google, or IBM, is quite different from equity at a start up....
- lefthander 13y ago
  Interesting. Would you mind revealing your level?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - lefthander2 13y ago
    Above Sr. SWE my impression is that the level is less tightly coupled to compensation. There are probably some Staff Engineers getting paid more than some Sr. Staff, and so on. A lot more will depend on how many rounds of equity refresh you have under your belt, whether you've done something that's saved the company millions or helped the bottom line of the company millions; and of course, if you were formerly at another company, what your salary/level you had at that former company. At Staff Engineer and above, the levels are more about the scope of your responsibilities at Google, and while compensation is somewhat correlated to that, there are other factors. If you can drive huge amounts of value to the bottom line, either via innovations that save the company $$$ or by working on a project which is "up and to the right", in my experience sooner or later you will be compensated for it --- either at your current company, or somewhere else. Google is pretty good at making sure it's "at your current company". And so long as you are doing something that you love, does it really matter what level you are at? Personally, for me it's less about the money, since I have enough to be comfortable, and I haven't gotten really expensive habits (like wanting to learn how to fly, or drive race cars, or children to put through college :-). So it's it's more about doing what I love, and doing it in the company of smart people who are fun to be with. Figuring ways of making this intersect with adding as much value as possible to the company is just a bonus.
georgebonnr 13y ago
you guys did notice that this account was created 1 hour ago, right?
- lefthander 13y ago
  Yes, because I want to be anonymous. Does it mean I'm lying? Even check glassdoor to verify: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Senior-Software-Engineer-Salaries-E9079_D_KO7,31.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Senior-Software-Engin... 146k base + 32k cash + 41k stock = $220k (everyone gets bonus and stock). And this averages data before the raise Google gave everyone.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - georgebonnr 13y ago
    fair enough
  - just2n 13y ago
    It certainly doesn't imply you're being truthful. Glassdoor also suffers from the same problem. It's voluntary, unverifiable data. Using it as a source does not help your credibility.
    - robrenaud 13y ago
      I am swe 3 at google, one below senior, base 140k (supposedly maxed, but I've heard other swe 3 making somewhat more), total comp excluding benefits 230k. As for verification, I'll bet you lots of money at 10:1 odds that these are accurate within 10k (flux depends on stock price).
      - bearmf 13y ago
        But 230k is very different from 400k that lefthander supposedly makes.
jfasi 13y ago
That seems like a high salary. What's your title?
- lefthander 13y ago
  Senior Software Engineer. It's actually low. I'm fairly certain that it's below the median from talking with coworkers.
  - zerr 13y ago
    I guess, no chance to request significant rise, right? Unless you move to other company.
  - zobzu 13y ago
    Time to rethink that Google offer.
  - bearmf 13y ago
    This comment makes it hard to believe you. Google has not been known to pay half a million dollars to regular people. And no one in their right mind would call that salary low, except maybe a spoiled Wall St banker.
azth 13y ago
That's great. Out of curiosity, are you a software engineer (SDE), if so which level? Or an engineering manager, or something else?
nilkn 13y ago
I don't think it's necessarily silly, for a few reasons. First, the salary is completely guaranteed. Short of getting laid off or the company failing completely, you'll get your salary; bonuses can be canceled at most companies and may even be quite unpredictable. Stocks may have a vesting schedule and are subject to the financial markets. Google might be a little more predictable in this way, but many companies aren't. For instance, how comfortable would you be choosing a bigger mortgage on the basis of your bonuses and stocks rather than your salary? Chances are it's your base salary which will really determine how much of a house you'll buy, because you don't want to foreclose because your bonus one year wasn't as high as you had hoped or the stocks went down. Even if your salary were a guaranteed $260k, you couldn't afford a $1M home by most conventional wisdom (median SF home price as of 2013). Second, as a result of the foregoing, I've noticed many companies are extremely hesitant to give huge base salaries to developers. It is therefore interesting to see how frequent it is for people to have salaries of $200k+.
dredmorbius 13y ago
Bonuses, and especially stock or option grants, can be difficult to reasonably evaluate. If you're at a large company, forsee staying there through your vesting period, and the stock value is reasonably stable, it's rather more a sure thing. Being an early/mid stage hire at a startup with a high probability for failure, transition, or dramatic restructuring may well make both bonus and options grant promises little more than wallpaper. And for a typical young engineer starting out with little experience in either negotiating such terms or understanding how they work and the associated probabilities, making a rational and accurate assessment is at best difficult. So: no, they're not something you'd completely ignore, but (as with other forms of indirect payment, compensation, revenue, etc.) they make determining fair market price rather more difficult.
lefthander3 13y ago
Disclaimer: I created this account just to post this comment. I'm a Google Software Engineer III (one level below lefthander and presumably two or three levels below lefthander2) and I haven't been at the company a long time (no stock refreshes or pay rises since joining). My base salary is ~$130k but I conservatively expect that my salary+stock+bonuses for this year will total to be above $190k. This makes me believe lefthander and lefthander2's numbers, taking into account their seniority.

kanzure 13y ago

I was trying to avoid people voting based on "fun bucks" from startups eager to promise you the world. Maybe in future polls it could say "liquid" compensation only, instead of base? Liquid assets would mean cash, or even shares traded on the open market. Thing is, other polls included non-base compensation, and the opposite argument gets brought up. But yeah, let's try liquid next time. Also: this is exactly the class of anecdote I was hoping to hear today. Thanks. Maybe I should go respond to that Google recruiter that keeps emailing me..

gohrt 13y ago
Startups have a well-documented value based on financing they have raised. They have x% stake, and some investors have paid y% for a z% stake. The mystery is simply in the volatility of future value. Second market tradable shares and public company shares are easily valued. Anything else has an average value of <$10K, based on a sampling of actual new-startup performance.

covi 13y ago

Mind sharing some basic background info? Years of experience / education would help add context.

lefthander 13y ago
I don't want to share too much. A few years out of undergrad.

ashray 13y ago

Congrats! That sounds like a great compensation package. I'm just trying to understand though how does tax effect the overall amount that you eventually earn ? Does it come down by 35% or 40% or does it depend on when you decide to cash out your capital gains (for the stock part..) ?

lefthander 13y ago
Yes, my net taxes are roughly in that range.
gohrt 13y ago
Stock grants are taxed as ordinary income, based on market price (or estimated value, for pre-IPO) on the day of vest.
- encoderer 13y ago
  If it's pre-ipo it's often a qualified options plan and not RSUs. In many pre-ipo cases you would be taxed only on capital gains.

lefthander2 13y ago

My base salary is $220k; this year my bonus plus equity will be around $200k, so my total compensation will be over $400k. I've been out for a number of years, and the bonus plus stock is performance based, and of course the value of the stock compensation may change depending on the future direction of Google stock --- it's climbed very nicely since the beginning of the year! The main point is that ignoring the stock and bonus portion of the compensation leaves a huge portion of the story missing. And stock at a publicly traded company, whether it's Amazon, Facebook, Google, or IBM, is quite different from equity at a start up....

lefthander 13y ago
Interesting. Would you mind revealing your level?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- lefthander2 13y ago
  Above Sr. SWE my impression is that the level is less tightly coupled to compensation. There are probably some Staff Engineers getting paid more than some Sr. Staff, and so on. A lot more will depend on how many rounds of equity refresh you have under your belt, whether you've done something that's saved the company millions or helped the bottom line of the company millions; and of course, if you were formerly at another company, what your salary/level you had at that former company. At Staff Engineer and above, the levels are more about the scope of your responsibilities at Google, and while compensation is somewhat correlated to that, there are other factors. If you can drive huge amounts of value to the bottom line, either via innovations that save the company $$$ or by working on a project which is "up and to the right", in my experience sooner or later you will be compensated for it --- either at your current company, or somewhere else. Google is pretty good at making sure it's "at your current company". And so long as you are doing something that you love, does it really matter what level you are at? Personally, for me it's less about the money, since I have enough to be comfortable, and I haven't gotten really expensive habits (like wanting to learn how to fly, or drive race cars, or children to put through college :-). So it's it's more about doing what I love, and doing it in the company of smart people who are fun to be with. Figuring ways of making this intersect with adding as much value as possible to the company is just a bonus.

georgebonnr 13y ago

you guys did notice that this account was created 1 hour ago, right?

lefthander 13y ago
Yes, because I want to be anonymous. Does it mean I'm lying? Even check glassdoor to verify: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Senior-Software-Engineer-Salaries-E9079_D_KO7,31.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Senior-Software-Engin... 146k base + 32k cash + 41k stock = $220k (everyone gets bonus and stock). And this averages data before the raise Google gave everyone.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- georgebonnr 13y ago
  fair enough
- just2n 13y ago
  It certainly doesn't imply you're being truthful. Glassdoor also suffers from the same problem. It's voluntary, unverifiable data. Using it as a source does not help your credibility.
  - robrenaud 13y ago
    I am swe 3 at google, one below senior, base 140k (supposedly maxed, but I've heard other swe 3 making somewhat more), total comp excluding benefits 230k. As for verification, I'll bet you lots of money at 10:1 odds that these are accurate within 10k (flux depends on stock price).
    - bearmf 13y ago
      But 230k is very different from 400k that lefthander supposedly makes.

jfasi 13y ago

That seems like a high salary. What's your title?

lefthander 13y ago
Senior Software Engineer. It's actually low. I'm fairly certain that it's below the median from talking with coworkers.
- zerr 13y ago
  I guess, no chance to request significant rise, right? Unless you move to other company.
- zobzu 13y ago
  Time to rethink that Google offer.
- bearmf 13y ago
  This comment makes it hard to believe you. Google has not been known to pay half a million dollars to regular people. And no one in their right mind would call that salary low, except maybe a spoiled Wall St banker.

azth 13y ago

That's great. Out of curiosity, are you a software engineer (SDE), if so which level? Or an engineering manager, or something else?

nilkn 13y ago

I don't think it's necessarily silly, for a few reasons. First, the salary is completely guaranteed. Short of getting laid off or the company failing completely, you'll get your salary; bonuses can be canceled at most companies and may even be quite unpredictable. Stocks may have a vesting schedule and are subject to the financial markets. Google might be a little more predictable in this way, but many companies aren't. For instance, how comfortable would you be choosing a bigger mortgage on the basis of your bonuses and stocks rather than your salary? Chances are it's your base salary which will really determine how much of a house you'll buy, because you don't want to foreclose because your bonus one year wasn't as high as you had hoped or the stocks went down. Even if your salary were a guaranteed $260k, you couldn't afford a $1M home by most conventional wisdom (median SF home price as of 2013). Second, as a result of the foregoing, I've noticed many companies are extremely hesitant to give huge base salaries to developers. It is therefore interesting to see how frequent it is for people to have salaries of $200k+.

dredmorbius 13y ago

Bonuses, and especially stock or option grants, can be difficult to reasonably evaluate. If you're at a large company, forsee staying there through your vesting period, and the stock value is reasonably stable, it's rather more a sure thing. Being an early/mid stage hire at a startup with a high probability for failure, transition, or dramatic restructuring may well make both bonus and options grant promises little more than wallpaper. And for a typical young engineer starting out with little experience in either negotiating such terms or understanding how they work and the associated probabilities, making a rational and accurate assessment is at best difficult. So: no, they're not something you'd completely ignore, but (as with other forms of indirect payment, compensation, revenue, etc.) they make determining fair market price rather more difficult.

lefthander3 13y ago

Disclaimer: I created this account just to post this comment. I'm a Google Software Engineer III (one level below lefthander and presumably two or three levels below lefthander2) and I haven't been at the company a long time (no stock refreshes or pay rises since joining). My base salary is ~$130k but I conservatively expect that my salary+stock+bonuses for this year will total to be above $190k. This makes me believe lefthander and lefthander2's numbers, taking into account their seniority.