4 ms·

The Portuguese Experiment: Did Drug Decriminalization Work?

64 points by EGF 17y ago

miguelpais 17y ago
Wow, I didn't know the Netherlands had never really legalized cannabis... Also, I'm from Portugal, and although I knew being caught using some drugs would take no action from the police, I didn't know we were that liberal... Anyway, whoever is caught selling goes to jail...
- jvdh 17y ago
  The situation in the Netherlands is a little more complicated than the article leads you to believe. It is legal to possess cannabis, it is also legal to grow it at home, as long as it is for personal use. What they say about not enforcing the laws against the shops is partly true. The shops are allowed to have a very small amount in stock. However, the legal amount is ridiculously small, and less than what most stores sell in a day. The shops solve this by having regular drops during the day. I'm not completely sure, but I believe that the warehouses where the shops get their drops from are legally allowed. And I'm also not completely sure about the legallity of importing cannabis from other countries, although it does happen a lot.
  - wheels 17y ago
    False. Possession is illegal in the Netherlands. The Netherlands is a signatory to international treaties which it would have to back out of to formally legalize certain drugs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands#Non-enforcement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands#...
    - jvdh 17y ago
      ah right, there is no cop that will arrest you for it, nor is there a judge that will sentence you if you do get arrested. sorry that I thought it was legal, what was I thinking ;-)
      - wheels 17y ago
        There are all sorts of things that you won't get arrested for that aren't legal.
randomtask 17y ago
The title is wrong. Portugal hasn't legalised drugs, but rather decriminalised possession for personal use. In effect they have the same laws, but whereas users could be sent to prison before they will now instead be assessed and treated by the state. Proper legalisation would remove all consequences of drug use, rather than just reducing penalties. To argue that this proves any arguments for or against legalisation is wrong in my opinion.
- jvdh 17y ago
  The title is not completely right, but then, it's a newspaper article title, and it explains it all perfectly in the body of the article. Of course the article does provide good argumenst for legislation. While they may not have completely legalised it, it does show that a lot less harsh punishment has a very positive effect.
- EGF 17y ago
  You are right an upon further review I wanted to change the title. What would be a better representation of a summary without getting too long? "Effects of Portugals changes to drug possession punishment?" I keep getting too jumbled, and would like to properly rename if you can help.
  - randomtask 17y ago
    How about "Effect of decriminalizing drugs in Portugal - stats included"? Don't take my comment personally. The title Time gave the article is misleading too especially since they later on quote someone who calls it decriminalization.
russell 17y ago
This is a very encouraging report. In Portugal there was a significant drop in drug usage, hospitalization, and deaths after decriminalization. The savings in enforcement paid for improved treatment. Selling drugs was not decriminalized. The situation here in CA is insane. Medical use of marijuana is legal, but the feds raid the shops. We spend billions turning minor drug dealers and users into prisoners and billions more building new prisons. The prison guards union is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the state. I remember reading around the turn of the century that nationally 40% of black males, teens to early 20's, were on parole, in jail, or awaiting trial. Insane. It seems that decriminalization reduces the attractiveness of drugs. I speculate that it reduces peer pressure, hard sell drug dealers, and the profitability of drug sales.
krschultz 17y ago
The big red flag is the sponsor - the CATO institute is hardcore pro-legalization. I love the findings as much as the next libertarian but the report would be more persuasive if it came from a neutral commission.
- randomtask 17y ago
  I don't think having an opinion should preclude anyone from producing these kind of reports or reduce their persuasiveness. Personally I'd prefer to read a report from an organisation, such as the CATO institute whose political opinions are well known to me, than an "independent" government commission. At least then I know where they stand.
  - marcusbooster 17y ago
    Exactly, I know where they stand -- so I know to take whatever their findings with a grain of salt. What's that old adage about stats again?
    - billswift 17y ago
      How about "People who generically object to statistics KNOW their own position can't be rationally supported."
      - marcusbooster 17y ago
        I haven't said anything about their stats or methodologies, but I don't know how you can outright dismiss the reputation of the organization when accessing those very things.
    - anigbrowl 17y ago
      This is an intellectually lazy position, like dismissing a the findings of a scientific paper on the basis that the authors began with a hypothesis and sought evidence of its truth. Of course that happens, which is why the quality of sources and methodology should be taken into account. I haven't real the full paper yet, but the sourcing is impeccable, using government statistics and peer-reviewed papers rather than private surveys or anecdotal evidence.
kyro 17y ago
Uh, so, I usually really hate comments about how an article isn't related to HN, but with this submission and the one about China on the front page, I felt like I needed to write one too. I sort of feel like I'm looking at the front page of CNN or the NYT when I see stories about national legalization of drugs and the problems in a nation's infrastructure. I think some of us have taken the guideline of 'stories that are interesting to hackers' to a bit of an extreme. It's almost become 'ok, some hackers take drugs, this story is about drugs, it should be interesting.' I still think that stories submitted should have a basic level of hackishness to them. As someone who'd consider himself a non-hacker, I find more hack related stories to be much more interesting than any of these Time/etc. articles, and I come here to read them because I wouldn't have been able to find them elsewhere, whereas these globally related articles are relatively easy to come by. So, flag. And the other one.
- phugoid 17y ago
  I don't mind a _handful_ of non-tech articles. I'm more interested in the comments: what do smart tech people think about this or that? Then I add my own comment, and the smart bit gets cleared. Ah well. In any case, I assume the point-based algorithm is sufficient for moderating which articles should reach the front page.... Just my two cents' worth.
  - swombat 17y ago
    We've really had enough marijuana threads already. And past experience has shown that they lead to no useful discussion whatsoever.
- radu_floricica 17y ago
  Upvoted. The problem is not that this article is not interesting: it is. But this is a site for a different kind of news. But there are many places (reddit, digg, slashdot to name a few) where you can read about this, and very few places dedicated to "hacker news". Not only that, but the proportion of hacker/non-hacker new is heavy on the side of non-hacker. So in order to keep this site useful it's very important to keep it on topic. Otherwise it would become a good site, but no longer unique. Edit: also flagged btw. Complaining is ok, but it's good to remember from time to time there is a button for this kind of thing.
MaysonL 17y ago
Link to the Cato Institute, where you can download the report they sponsored: http://cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080 http://cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080
catzaa 17y ago
Singapore also have an excelent system to minimize drug use.
- donaq 17y ago
  Capital punishment for possession, you mean? I think that's a little extreme, even though I am Singaporean.

64 points by EGF 17y ago

Wow, I didn't know the Netherlands had never really legalized cannabis... Also, I'm from Portugal, and although I knew being caught using some drugs would take no action from the police, I didn't know we were that liberal... Anyway, whoever is caught selling goes to jail...

jvdh 17y ago
The situation in the Netherlands is a little more complicated than the article leads you to believe. It is legal to possess cannabis, it is also legal to grow it at home, as long as it is for personal use. What they say about not enforcing the laws against the shops is partly true. The shops are allowed to have a very small amount in stock. However, the legal amount is ridiculously small, and less than what most stores sell in a day. The shops solve this by having regular drops during the day. I'm not completely sure, but I believe that the warehouses where the shops get their drops from are legally allowed. And I'm also not completely sure about the legallity of importing cannabis from other countries, although it does happen a lot.
- wheels 17y ago
  False. Possession is illegal in the Netherlands. The Netherlands is a signatory to international treaties which it would have to back out of to formally legalize certain drugs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands#Non-enforcement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands#...
  - jvdh 17y ago
    ah right, there is no cop that will arrest you for it, nor is there a judge that will sentence you if you do get arrested. sorry that I thought it was legal, what was I thinking ;-)
    - wheels 17y ago
      There are all sorts of things that you won't get arrested for that aren't legal.

randomtask 17y ago

The title is wrong. Portugal hasn't legalised drugs, but rather decriminalised possession for personal use. In effect they have the same laws, but whereas users could be sent to prison before they will now instead be assessed and treated by the state. Proper legalisation would remove all consequences of drug use, rather than just reducing penalties. To argue that this proves any arguments for or against legalisation is wrong in my opinion.

jvdh 17y ago
The title is not completely right, but then, it's a newspaper article title, and it explains it all perfectly in the body of the article. Of course the article does provide good argumenst for legislation. While they may not have completely legalised it, it does show that a lot less harsh punishment has a very positive effect.
EGF 17y ago
You are right an upon further review I wanted to change the title. What would be a better representation of a summary without getting too long? "Effects of Portugals changes to drug possession punishment?" I keep getting too jumbled, and would like to properly rename if you can help.
- randomtask 17y ago
  How about "Effect of decriminalizing drugs in Portugal - stats included"? Don't take my comment personally. The title Time gave the article is misleading too especially since they later on quote someone who calls it decriminalization.

russell 17y ago

This is a very encouraging report. In Portugal there was a significant drop in drug usage, hospitalization, and deaths after decriminalization. The savings in enforcement paid for improved treatment. Selling drugs was not decriminalized. The situation here in CA is insane. Medical use of marijuana is legal, but the feds raid the shops. We spend billions turning minor drug dealers and users into prisoners and billions more building new prisons. The prison guards union is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the state. I remember reading around the turn of the century that nationally 40% of black males, teens to early 20's, were on parole, in jail, or awaiting trial. Insane. It seems that decriminalization reduces the attractiveness of drugs. I speculate that it reduces peer pressure, hard sell drug dealers, and the profitability of drug sales.

krschultz 17y ago

The big red flag is the sponsor - the CATO institute is hardcore pro-legalization. I love the findings as much as the next libertarian but the report would be more persuasive if it came from a neutral commission.

randomtask 17y ago
I don't think having an opinion should preclude anyone from producing these kind of reports or reduce their persuasiveness. Personally I'd prefer to read a report from an organisation, such as the CATO institute whose political opinions are well known to me, than an "independent" government commission. At least then I know where they stand.
- marcusbooster 17y ago
  Exactly, I know where they stand -- so I know to take whatever their findings with a grain of salt. What's that old adage about stats again?
  - billswift 17y ago
    How about "People who generically object to statistics KNOW their own position can't be rationally supported."
    - marcusbooster 17y ago
      I haven't said anything about their stats or methodologies, but I don't know how you can outright dismiss the reputation of the organization when accessing those very things.
  - anigbrowl 17y ago
    This is an intellectually lazy position, like dismissing a the findings of a scientific paper on the basis that the authors began with a hypothesis and sought evidence of its truth. Of course that happens, which is why the quality of sources and methodology should be taken into account. I haven't real the full paper yet, but the sourcing is impeccable, using government statistics and peer-reviewed papers rather than private surveys or anecdotal evidence.

kyro 17y ago

Uh, so, I usually really hate comments about how an article isn't related to HN, but with this submission and the one about China on the front page, I felt like I needed to write one too. I sort of feel like I'm looking at the front page of CNN or the NYT when I see stories about national legalization of drugs and the problems in a nation's infrastructure. I think some of us have taken the guideline of 'stories that are interesting to hackers' to a bit of an extreme. It's almost become 'ok, some hackers take drugs, this story is about drugs, it should be interesting.' I still think that stories submitted should have a basic level of hackishness to them. As someone who'd consider himself a non-hacker, I find more hack related stories to be much more interesting than any of these Time/etc. articles, and I come here to read them because I wouldn't have been able to find them elsewhere, whereas these globally related articles are relatively easy to come by. So, flag. And the other one.

phugoid 17y ago
I don't mind a _handful_ of non-tech articles. I'm more interested in the comments: what do smart tech people think about this or that? Then I add my own comment, and the smart bit gets cleared. Ah well. In any case, I assume the point-based algorithm is sufficient for moderating which articles should reach the front page.... Just my two cents' worth.
- swombat 17y ago
  We've really had enough marijuana threads already. And past experience has shown that they lead to no useful discussion whatsoever.
radu_floricica 17y ago
Upvoted. The problem is not that this article is not interesting: it is. But this is a site for a different kind of news. But there are many places (reddit, digg, slashdot to name a few) where you can read about this, and very few places dedicated to "hacker news". Not only that, but the proportion of hacker/non-hacker new is heavy on the side of non-hacker. So in order to keep this site useful it's very important to keep it on topic. Otherwise it would become a good site, but no longer unique. Edit: also flagged btw. Complaining is ok, but it's good to remember from time to time there is a button for this kind of thing.

MaysonL 17y ago

Link to the Cato Institute, where you can download the report they sponsored: http://cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080 http://cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080

catzaa 17y ago

Singapore also have an excelent system to minimize drug use.

donaq 17y ago
Capital punishment for possession, you mean? I think that's a little extreme, even though I am Singaporean.