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Really? Organize for what? In today's market, people who can write good code are getting poached left and right. It's one of the easiest, if not THE easiest, ma

Really? Organize for what? In today's market, people who can write good code are getting poached left and right. It's one of the easiest, if not THE easiest, market to move around in. Don't like your current gig? Quit and go somewhere else. The demand far outstrips the supply. You already have the upper hand on pretty much every employer.

TheMagicHorsey 13y ago
QA testers are not in the same boat though. I think the post is about QA testers.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Maybe QA testers should, but not software developers at large.
  - jacobquick 13y ago
    There are a lot of benefits to organization beyond simple salary negotiations. Other professions in very high demand like doctors organize themselves to an incredible extent, and are able to have significant pull with both employers and governments as a consequence. They have meaningful input into the laws and regulations that apply to their craft. Doctors don't have organizations with the word "union" in the title, but the AMA, essentially the doctors' trade association, was maybe the second most powerful player who opposed meaningful healthcare reform (and they won). An equivalent association of developers could basically dictate terms for software patents/licensing/ownership issues and software-related IP regulations in the US. They could secure absolute limits on the length of their work week. They could easily block Zuckerberg, et al.'s H1B visa expansion garbage. And yeah, on top of all that, they could include QA in their little club and maybe get them some health insurance or job security or literally anything approaching just and fair employment terms.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      An industry wide political interests group (not a labor union) could be useful, but to be honest I expect there would be far less common ground than you might expect or hope. For every Bay Area programmer that is really into sane standards, open software and minimal surveillance, there are probably half a dozen programmers throughout the rest of the world that work 9-5, have a few patents in their name, and primarily care about their family and (consequentially) their employers stability. They are the people participating in most of the stuff the rest of us think is wrong with the industry, and they don't hate themselves for it. On another end of the multidimensional spectrum you have armies of STEM graduates working/contracting for the Federal government who really do buy into "nothing to hide". (For an example of this attitude, see Bob Metcalfe's recent reddit 'AMA'). I'm spinning these perspectives very negatively because I don't share them, but regardless of my bias the fact remains there are a lot of programmers that the diversity of "what programmers think about stuff" is underestimated.
  - EternalFury 13y ago
    As a QA professional, if you don't perceive yourself as being an integral part of the software development process, you are missing the point of your function. The entire software development process involves professionals who currently have no recourse beyond "getting the frack out" when their working conditions become abusive. I don't think we need to open our history books to remind ourselves that industries don't self-regulate until they are forced to.
EternalFury 13y ago
If you exclude age and gender discrimination, that is. There are many situations where your only choice is to take it up the rear or go elsewhere. If you are bad or unfit for the job, that's fair. If it's based on anything else, it's something that needs organizing. If you are male, between 20 and 30 and fresh out of Stanford, you obviously see things very differently.
jacoblyles 13y ago
The video game industry is very different, with terrible compensation and working conditions.
jeremy6d 13y ago
Organize for more control over our working conditions. It's not true that one has the upper hand on pretty much every employer. You'll get money thrown at you, sure. Great benefits, sure. But having control, being able to do something you're proud of, not being shit on by management who's more interested in politics than product -- that's difficult in the current environment. What we need is a kind of guild for developers. We can't improve our conditions if it's all about maximizing our take home. We have to seek control over the way software development is performed, setting new standards for what is expected of clients and developers. We need to take charge of providing better educations for new developers. We need the open source model to become the primary way code is written, instead of something capital exploits in order to free ride on the "commons" of the community. People who reduce it all to making a salary can go far, but they're not doing anything for the community who's shoulders they're standing on. Right now we have a scarce skill, but people are trying to find ways to deskill programming and make it a mindless commodity anybody can do. Maybe they'll figure that out one day. We should have a backup plan as an industry.

TheMagicHorsey 13y ago

QA testers are not in the same boat though. I think the post is about QA testers.

jlgreco 13y ago
Maybe QA testers should, but not software developers at large.
- jacobquick 13y ago
  There are a lot of benefits to organization beyond simple salary negotiations. Other professions in very high demand like doctors organize themselves to an incredible extent, and are able to have significant pull with both employers and governments as a consequence. They have meaningful input into the laws and regulations that apply to their craft. Doctors don't have organizations with the word "union" in the title, but the AMA, essentially the doctors' trade association, was maybe the second most powerful player who opposed meaningful healthcare reform (and they won). An equivalent association of developers could basically dictate terms for software patents/licensing/ownership issues and software-related IP regulations in the US. They could secure absolute limits on the length of their work week. They could easily block Zuckerberg, et al.'s H1B visa expansion garbage. And yeah, on top of all that, they could include QA in their little club and maybe get them some health insurance or job security or literally anything approaching just and fair employment terms.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    An industry wide political interests group (not a labor union) could be useful, but to be honest I expect there would be far less common ground than you might expect or hope. For every Bay Area programmer that is really into sane standards, open software and minimal surveillance, there are probably half a dozen programmers throughout the rest of the world that work 9-5, have a few patents in their name, and primarily care about their family and (consequentially) their employers stability. They are the people participating in most of the stuff the rest of us think is wrong with the industry, and they don't hate themselves for it. On another end of the multidimensional spectrum you have armies of STEM graduates working/contracting for the Federal government who really do buy into "nothing to hide". (For an example of this attitude, see Bob Metcalfe's recent reddit 'AMA'). I'm spinning these perspectives very negatively because I don't share them, but regardless of my bias the fact remains there are a lot of programmers that the diversity of "what programmers think about stuff" is underestimated.
- EternalFury 13y ago
  As a QA professional, if you don't perceive yourself as being an integral part of the software development process, you are missing the point of your function. The entire software development process involves professionals who currently have no recourse beyond "getting the frack out" when their working conditions become abusive. I don't think we need to open our history books to remind ourselves that industries don't self-regulate until they are forced to.

EternalFury 13y ago

If you exclude age and gender discrimination, that is. There are many situations where your only choice is to take it up the rear or go elsewhere. If you are bad or unfit for the job, that's fair. If it's based on anything else, it's something that needs organizing. If you are male, between 20 and 30 and fresh out of Stanford, you obviously see things very differently.

jacoblyles 13y ago

The video game industry is very different, with terrible compensation and working conditions.

jeremy6d 13y ago

Organize for more control over our working conditions. It's not true that one has the upper hand on pretty much every employer. You'll get money thrown at you, sure. Great benefits, sure. But having control, being able to do something you're proud of, not being shit on by management who's more interested in politics than product -- that's difficult in the current environment. What we need is a kind of guild for developers. We can't improve our conditions if it's all about maximizing our take home. We have to seek control over the way software development is performed, setting new standards for what is expected of clients and developers. We need to take charge of providing better educations for new developers. We need the open source model to become the primary way code is written, instead of something capital exploits in order to free ride on the "commons" of the community. People who reduce it all to making a salary can go far, but they're not doing anything for the community who's shoulders they're standing on. Right now we have a scarce skill, but people are trying to find ways to deskill programming and make it a mindless commodity anybody can do. Maybe they'll figure that out one day. We should have a backup plan as an industry.