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I keep hearing people talk about how "useless" discussing gender equality is. I don't think it's useless at all, and I've yet to hear a cogent argument to the

I keep hearing people talk about how "useless" discussing gender equality is. I don't think it's useless at all, and I've yet to hear a cogent argument to the contrary. If you think the discussions are ineffective, then explain why. What should be done differently? What can we do to have less ineffective discussions? If you think discussing the subject is pointless because discussing equality is useless, then... fuck knows, there's not much point in discussion is there :P Additionally, it's worth pointing out that Matt, having heard and taken the criticism he was given, responded by removing a number of risque images from the presentation that is now posted on the ultrasaurus thread linked up here.

axod 18y ago
I think to a lot of people, discussing sexism that doesn't really exist... is... well sexist. It's creating more division rather than helping. Just quit moaning about it and get on with building. We're in an industry where gender is pretty irrelevant. Asking "How do we get more women into tech" though is like asking how we get more boys to play with dolls. Let people get on and do what they want to.
- knowtheory 18y ago
  Ah, okay, so that belies the actual problem. I know girls who have been interested in tech, who abandon it, either because of the presumption that they will not be welcome, or in response to actual behavior of their male peers (i know numerous girls who've been in CS classes, who've been in group projects, only to have one of the group members by the end of the project freak out on them, or get -really- -really- passive aggressive, after it becomes clear that said girls have no romantic interest in a particular group member). While my personal experience is obviously anecdotal, discussions i've had and things i've read indicate to me that the experiences my friend have had are not outliers. So, it may be that, overtly, some think that gender is irrelevant in coding, or even that coding isn't social, but gender is part of identity, just as much as much as your coding creations are part of your identity. Also, comparing the ability to determine at your own abilities what career you would like to be in, and how you can contribute to society to playing with dolls? Trivializes the cause of gender equality a bit don't you think? Additionally, boys are actively discouraged from playing with dolls. Society punishes such behavior, and vigorously promotes alternative behavior in it's place. So, ask yourself, why shouldn't boys be able to play w/ dolls? Why does society discourage it? :p Don't get me wrong, proportional gender representation (or at least anything closer than what we have now) in tech isn't a unique problem. My wife is in Dietetics (what dietitians do, not what Tom Cruise does), and they've got the opposite gender distribution from what the Ruby community does. It's just as frustrating for them as to why guys don't go into their field. It's certainly not because a male perspective wouldn't be useful (since there are cultural distinctions between how guys view food, health, and the human body). It's not because they're not good at contributing to the field (i've heard some really cool things that guys in food science & nutrition have produced out of the University of Guelph for instance) But the notion that we should just ignore it is... pretty pathetic in my opinion :( Just because some don't care, doesn't mean it's not a problem, or that it's not an injustice that should be addressed.
  - jamesbritt 18y ago
    "Additionally, boys are actively discouraged from playing with dolls. Society punishes such behavior, and vigorously promotes alternative behavior in it's place. So, ask yourself, why shouldn't boys be able to play w/ dolls? Why does society discourage it? :p" It doesn't. It calls them "action figures."
    - knowtheory 18y ago
      I think programmers forget that external behavior isn't the only factor in whether two things are similar. Human behavior is determined by internal state of the actor (i.e. intention, context and frame of mind) and then external behavior. I hope you'll agree that even if there are outward similarities between dolls and action figures, most boys and girls make a distinction between the two (which is a learned behavior). If you swap a child's dolls for action figures, or visa-versa, you don't get identical behavior. There is a cognitive distinction.

axod 18y ago

I think to a lot of people, discussing sexism that doesn't really exist... is... well sexist. It's creating more division rather than helping. Just quit moaning about it and get on with building. We're in an industry where gender is pretty irrelevant. Asking "How do we get more women into tech" though is like asking how we get more boys to play with dolls. Let people get on and do what they want to.

knowtheory 18y ago
Ah, okay, so that belies the actual problem. I know girls who have been interested in tech, who abandon it, either because of the presumption that they will not be welcome, or in response to actual behavior of their male peers (i know numerous girls who've been in CS classes, who've been in group projects, only to have one of the group members by the end of the project freak out on them, or get -really- -really- passive aggressive, after it becomes clear that said girls have no romantic interest in a particular group member). While my personal experience is obviously anecdotal, discussions i've had and things i've read indicate to me that the experiences my friend have had are not outliers. So, it may be that, overtly, some think that gender is irrelevant in coding, or even that coding isn't social, but gender is part of identity, just as much as much as your coding creations are part of your identity. Also, comparing the ability to determine at your own abilities what career you would like to be in, and how you can contribute to society to playing with dolls? Trivializes the cause of gender equality a bit don't you think? Additionally, boys are actively discouraged from playing with dolls. Society punishes such behavior, and vigorously promotes alternative behavior in it's place. So, ask yourself, why shouldn't boys be able to play w/ dolls? Why does society discourage it? :p Don't get me wrong, proportional gender representation (or at least anything closer than what we have now) in tech isn't a unique problem. My wife is in Dietetics (what dietitians do, not what Tom Cruise does), and they've got the opposite gender distribution from what the Ruby community does. It's just as frustrating for them as to why guys don't go into their field. It's certainly not because a male perspective wouldn't be useful (since there are cultural distinctions between how guys view food, health, and the human body). It's not because they're not good at contributing to the field (i've heard some really cool things that guys in food science & nutrition have produced out of the University of Guelph for instance) But the notion that we should just ignore it is... pretty pathetic in my opinion :( Just because some don't care, doesn't mean it's not a problem, or that it's not an injustice that should be addressed.
- jamesbritt 18y ago
  "Additionally, boys are actively discouraged from playing with dolls. Society punishes such behavior, and vigorously promotes alternative behavior in it's place. So, ask yourself, why shouldn't boys be able to play w/ dolls? Why does society discourage it? :p" It doesn't. It calls them "action figures."
  - knowtheory 18y ago
    I think programmers forget that external behavior isn't the only factor in whether two things are similar. Human behavior is determined by internal state of the actor (i.e. intention, context and frame of mind) and then external behavior. I hope you'll agree that even if there are outward similarities between dolls and action figures, most boys and girls make a distinction between the two (which is a learned behavior). If you swap a child's dolls for action figures, or visa-versa, you don't get identical behavior. There is a cognitive distinction.