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I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of pris

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it were just a means of keeping folks separate from society, I know plenty of unmotivated individuals that would love to sit around with a bunch of other lazy-asses and be fed 3 meals a day. For free. Don't you? Prison has to be scary. It has to strike one as the number one place that you do not want to go. It's the other ultimate consequence, along side of death. I can't imagine this world if it wasn't.

cynicalkane 13y ago
I don't think anyone thinks the deterrent effect of prisons are ineffective. However, the at-risk populations who most often end up in prison are bad at weighing these deterrents, especially before they go there. Another factor is the quality of deterrence: the point is not to arbitrarily and randomly ruin peoples' lives. You want a high ratio of crime reduction to damage. A good penal system does this and bad penal system works the other way around. A lot of science suggests that the life-ruining factor is a significant counter-effect to the original goal of reducing crime and increasing quality of life in our democracy. That's me being polite. If I was less polite, I would say how much I hate your ignorant, lazy self-righteousness and how this despicable and inhuman attitude is a major factor in how our system destroys people with little to no scientific justification.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
A very Hobbesian view of society, I see. Not one I subscribe to, nor one that, from my experience, is reflective of reality. Prison experiences in the US are pretty horrific in the norm, and yet there are more people in prison than ever (as a percentage of the population), and many of them are there due to fairly minor or victimless crimes. There is some sort of dissonance there, and I think it comes down to the fact that fear is not the sole or even necessarily the primary motivator for behavior on the boundary of the law. Also, there are countries where prison is not scary, where the criminal justice system raises rehabilitation above other concerns, and such places (such as Canada and the scandinavian countries) are not the lawless hellholes your theory of human behavior would have them be.
- RyanMcGreal 13y ago
  Sidenote because I agree with the main thrust of your argument, but: > A very Hobbesian view of society, I see. Not at all. The central argument in Hobbes' Leviathan is that most people are basically decent and reasonable, but that we need a strong, consistent rule of law in which to relax our guard and build personal, civic and business relationships with each other in a positive sum game where everyone benefits. It is the fear of violence and death in the absence of the rule of law that leads to the Hobbesian trap: a tragic situation in which someone who doesn't want trouble ends up pre-emptively raiding someone else who also doesn't want trouble, simply because they have no way to trust one other.
ryanac 13y ago
This would be fine if many prisons were not privately owned entities and if most inmates were not overly sentenced for minor drug charges. We also have a growing incarceration rate (U.S), which shows that prison does a pretty poor job of making people "scared absolutely shitless of prison so much that they play exactly by the rules" and don't forget, sometimes the rules are pretty ridiculous. Also "...individuals that would love to sit around with a bunch of other lazy-asses and be fed 3 meals a day. For free." is already the reality of the situation in many cases. It's not a choice between the scariest most brutal situation you can imagine or no prison at all. There are other options to make a better system. And in general, a society shouldn't have to be scared into "playing by the rules". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rat... Also read prison privatization.
- hoggle 13y ago
  True, some institutions shouldn't be privatized at all even though it might look like it's cheaper or more efficient to do so. It's not always about money, at least not here in Austria. I'm glad we have a baseline level of wealth. Do we always need more? Trying to be better, faster, stronger? When do we stop? Does it make sense in the end? Is it even really guaranteed to be the most productive strategy? Isn't the fact that I can walk through the most "sketchy" Vienna neighborhoods in the middle of the night worth quite a bit? Again I'm not talking about money here.
king_jester 13y ago
> Prison has to be scary. It has to strike one as the number one place that you do not want to go. It's the other ultimate consequence, along side of death. I can't imagine this world if it wasn't. Prison is not a deterrent. If it was, you would see prison population decline over time. Instead, it has grown quite significantly and in a racist way (black men are massively overrepresented and sent to prison).
- prawks 13y ago
  I think it's likely this is not because of the prison as much as it is the laws which determine what crimes are punishable by prison sentences, and the people who enforce and judge on those laws.
- freehunter 13y ago
  Just because prison population is rising does not mean that people are choosing to go to prison. The criminal justice system is choosing to send more and more people to prison for offenses that would not have incurred prison time in the past.
  - gknoy 13y ago
    More importantly, the people that do the Very Bad Things that we want prison to deter often do not think enough about their actions to consider the possible consequences, and also don't really think that it could happen to them. When people don't even think consequences will ever apply to them, how can the consequence act as a deterrent?
    - jessedhillon 13y ago
      What are the sources of these assertions? This seems like sheer speculation, or common-sensical reasoning -- do you know anyone from prison? Have you conducted some kind of psychological survey of prisoners?
munin 13y ago
if this view was correct, then surely countries with even harsher penalties for breaking the law, such as even worse prisons or death, would have less crime than the united states, right?
- dllthomas 13y ago
  While I disagree with the parent, this is not a solid argument. It's entirely plausible, without further data introduced into the conversation, that (say) Americans have a higher penchant for crime, and so our prisons need to be correspondingly harsher, and simply aren't harsher enough.
yardie 13y ago
> You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison Or from another point of view what makes prison less scary than the outside world? Everyone knows prison is unpleasant yet that doesn't appear to stop the increasing numbers each year. > Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. If this was a performance review they should be fired.
columbo 13y ago
> Prison has to be scary. No it doesn't. The problem with chest-thumping-ego-driven-bullshit like this is that it is very fact-adverse and causes more problems than it solves. Your type of prison is nothing more than a gang training camp. Start here: https://www.google.com/search?q=rehabilitation+vs+punishment+site%3A.edu+filetype%3Apdf https://www.google.com/search?q=rehabilitation+vs+punishment... And don't stop until about page 200ish.
- shoover 13y ago
  Are you referring to a particular article or 200 pages of search results?
- Someone 13y ago
  For an example of a not so or at least less scary prison: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//www.nrc.nl/stevendejong/2013/05/31/de-straf-is-vrijheidsbeneming-wij-voegen-geen-leed-toe/ http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&... TLDR version: "the punishment is being locked up; we do not add to the suffering." Google translate is decent at times, funny at other times (the vulture entering the scene is a translation of the prison director's surname), and woefully incorrect at others ("e.g. The IBT'ers still put their helmets on and not ask first what's going on" should be "don't put their helmets on but ask first what's going on"), but I think the message comes across. Two things to add: 1) the "for life system" (rightfully, IMO) is under scrutiny from the EU because, effectively, nobody ever is pardoned. 2) there are stronger regimes in some prisons.
Confusion 13y ago
Western European prisons, Australian prisons, Japanese prisons and prisons in other civilized, well-developed, rich countries are much nicer to stay in than American prisons and still our criminal problem isn't nearly as large as yours. I'm not the least bit afraid of going to prison here. Still I don't break the law, for reasons better than fear of prison.
- cobrausn 13y ago
  On the subject of prison harshness I don't think holding up Japan as a model of care and compassion is a good idea (link is old but not much has changed, I hear). http://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/08/world/prisons-in-japan-are-safe-but-harsh.html http://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/08/world/prisons-in-japan-are...
- vacri 13y ago
  On youtube there's a tv show "Australia's Hardest Prison", a max-security prison in WA. In it the warden is seen saying (paraphrased) "we try to do rehabilitation here, and the people you read in the newspapers calling for longer sentence simply don't understand prisons". There is also a grey-haired American prisoner who has been in several prisons in several countries. He has the opportunity to return to the US for imprisonment there, and he refuses, wanting to finish his life sentence in Aus because "it's... humane". Then you can click on any of the "America's hardest prisons" videos and they're all about using fear to keep you in line, overcrowding, so on and so forth. There's no overriding philosophy of embetterment, or if there is, it's merely lip-service.
sophacles 13y ago
Obviously the thought of prison doesn't in fact stop people from breaking the rules. The prison population is in fact growing. Similarly many places have prisons that are very unlike the US prisons, and yet they have lower crime rates. So the evidence against the core of your argument is pretty strong. At some point, when the punishment for minor offenses is extreme, the difference between minor offenses and major offenses gets very blurry. Extreme example: if stealing carries a punishment that is effectively the same as murder, the only logical thing to do when stealing is murder any potential witnesses. The US isn't quite this bad. However, when the actual punishment for minor crime includes the concept of a felony record, it becomes much harder to differentiate between minor possession of drugs and say grand theft. They both carry felony record issues. That means the being convicted of either results in prison, exclusion from most of the work force for life, the inability to participate in a lot of "better yourself" programs (and really, people who messed up earlier in life should be encouraged to be in these!) and a host of other life long punishments. I understand this is a bit tangential to your point, but bear with me... Now, when you look at the way the US justice system actually does things, you get this perception of arbitrariness or even randomness. The threat of prison is there, but there is no intuitive logic to how it works. Carrying some drugs will get you 20 guaranteed years in prison, while murdering someone will get you maybe 5, maybe 100. Raping someone will get you less time than "hacking". Racial discrepancies exist too in how prison is applied, as do wealth issues. There is parole/early release, and differences between judges and prosecutorial discretion further complicating the punishment question. Whether or not there is good, deep, and sound defensible logic in how this works, the appearance is that there is no way of determining how you'll punished for what you're doing. As such, once the decision has been made to do something relatively harmless, the deterrent effect of prison no longer applies. The rational choice is "punishment, when it happens, could be anything", therefore the game is no about deciding actions based on punishment, it is deciding actions based on getting caught. Any action, no matter how severe, that lessens your chance of getting caught is better than a less severe action which doesn't modify or worsens the chance of conviction. Basically my point is that when you want to use prisons to deter bad behavior, you better make it obvious that their application is something that can be reasoned about. As it stands, prison can't be included in any reasoning about consequences, except in an overly simplistic binary matter that has no effect at curbing any behavior once it is on the table.
khafra 13y ago
> Prison has to be scary. It has to strike one as the number one place that you do not want to go. It's the other ultimate consequence, along side of death. I can't imagine this world if it wasn't. If your theory were accurate, countries like Norway--with its extremely humane prisons (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.htm...) would be crime-ridden hellholes. But Norway's homicide rate is 1/10th that of the United States, and other crime statistics are similarly low: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... So it seems you are, in fact, wrong; and inflicting horrifying suffering indiscriminately on anyone who goes to prison does more harm than good.
- vasco 13y ago
  You cannot make that assumption, there can be other factors that lower the rate to 1/10th and without those it could actually be 10x just because "prison isn't scary". I'm not taking any sides but you can't make that jump without controlling every other variable.
  - mercurial 13y ago
    You're correct. However, some related variables like a low recidivism rate check out. Not to mention the same phenomenons in other Nordic countries.
mcherm 13y ago
> I know plenty of unmotivated individuals that would love to sit around with a bunch of other lazy-asses and be fed 3 meals a day. For free. Don't you? No. I know absolutely no people who would choose to be put in prison simply because they would be fed. I cannot imagine a wealthy society (and make no bones about it, our society is wealthy enough that people can be fed) which would permit that. > It has to strike one as the number one place that you do not want to go. I can't imagine this world if it wasn't. Try visiting Sweden some day. Or quite a few other places in the world -- almost any country other than the US, which is quite competitive for the world's worst prison system.
- gknoy 13y ago
  I've read (though I cannot find a link) of a homeless (or sick?) person who commited crimes because he felt prison's shelter + food was better than freezing/starving on the street. Reading the account, it was hard to consider than an irrational decision.
  - grecy 13y ago
    in America where if you are poor you are essentially fcked. That is not the case in other Developed countries.
  - vacri 13y ago
    Even so, it's not like most of those incarcerated (or even a significant minority) share this guy's story.
- sukuriant 13y ago
  > No. I know absolutely no people who would choose to be put in prison simply because they would be fed. I cannot imagine a wealthy society (and make no bones about it, our society is wealthy enough that people can be fed) which would permit that. Have you seen The Green Mile? I think that's the name of the movie, where the lead character contemplating committing a crime just so life would be easier again. Some people do chose prison; or, enough of their friends are in prison that it's not actually seen as a 'bad thing' for them to be in there. Add to that how we as a society feel about people that have come from prison and are a felon; and sometimes, life may actually be easier for some people on the inside.
cabalamat 13y ago
Yet prison isn't as scary in Norway and they have lower crimes rates than the USA. So your argument is wrong.
mikeash 13y ago
Why bother with prison at all, if that's your attitude? Just execute all lawbreakers and be done with it. The answer is that not all crimes are created equal, and neither should all punishments. You can go to prison for very mundane stuff.
skrebbel 13y ago
Upvoted to counter the ridiculous downvote legion. I fully disagree with your point, but it's a fair point worthy of HN, and I applaud you for uttering what is clearly a minority opinion here.
- Karunamon 13y ago
  Advocating what amounts to rape and torture just because we don't break it into its components (it's tacitly accepted, after all) is utterly abhorrent and deserves every step closer to invisible that it's getting.
  - skrebbel 13y ago
    Soo, people who you disagree with should be stopped from spreading their opinions? Come on, it's not that extreme, he's supporting the status quo. It's not like he's saying that all <minority X> should be killed. For comparison's sake, I once wrote here that "the Israeli government are a bunch of nazis" (and I'm still ashamed of that), and I got fewer downvotes (which doesn't make any sense at all, it was a horrible and worthless thing to write). In fact, people who disagreed with me took on the discussion and I learned a lot. That's what HN should be about. I really don't understand why supporting the current US prison system is an opinion so dangerous that it must be hidden from sight. Also, if you would've carefully read his post, you'd have seen that he doesn't advocate rape and torture, but the perception of it. It's a subtle difference, but a significant one.
    - Karunamon 13y ago
      >Soo, people who you disagree with should be stopped from spreading their opinions? Nobody's stopping anybody from spreading their opinion, last I checked. I said the downvotes were deserved. Not only for being factually incorrect, ("Prison has to be scary", which is the whole premise of the post, is handily disproved by looking at some of the Nordic nations' systems), but for perpetuating the kind of culture that allows solitary confinement (i.e. psychological torture) and prison rape to be accepted by otherwise sane and caring people. The culture of "whatever happens to guys in prison is their own fault" NEEDS to stop.
yoster 13y ago
How about all the innocent people who end up in prison? A small fraction of those people are exonerated. Imagine if you were sent to prison because of the color of your skin, you were falsely accused, or just because of plain corruption? Scrapcode, you better pray that you don't ever end up like one of those unfortunate people. Our justice system is broken and far from being able to be fixed. Justice is a joke, and so far it is truly blind....

cynicalkane 13y ago

I don't think anyone thinks the deterrent effect of prisons are ineffective. However, the at-risk populations who most often end up in prison are bad at weighing these deterrents, especially before they go there. Another factor is the quality of deterrence: the point is not to arbitrarily and randomly ruin peoples' lives. You want a high ratio of crime reduction to damage. A good penal system does this and bad penal system works the other way around. A lot of science suggests that the life-ruining factor is a significant counter-effect to the original goal of reducing crime and increasing quality of life in our democracy. That's me being polite. If I was less polite, I would say how much I hate your ignorant, lazy self-righteousness and how this despicable and inhuman attitude is a major factor in how our system destroys people with little to no scientific justification.

InclinedPlane 13y ago

A very Hobbesian view of society, I see. Not one I subscribe to, nor one that, from my experience, is reflective of reality. Prison experiences in the US are pretty horrific in the norm, and yet there are more people in prison than ever (as a percentage of the population), and many of them are there due to fairly minor or victimless crimes. There is some sort of dissonance there, and I think it comes down to the fact that fear is not the sole or even necessarily the primary motivator for behavior on the boundary of the law. Also, there are countries where prison is not scary, where the criminal justice system raises rehabilitation above other concerns, and such places (such as Canada and the scandinavian countries) are not the lawless hellholes your theory of human behavior would have them be.

RyanMcGreal 13y ago
Sidenote because I agree with the main thrust of your argument, but: > A very Hobbesian view of society, I see. Not at all. The central argument in Hobbes' Leviathan is that most people are basically decent and reasonable, but that we need a strong, consistent rule of law in which to relax our guard and build personal, civic and business relationships with each other in a positive sum game where everyone benefits. It is the fear of violence and death in the absence of the rule of law that leads to the Hobbesian trap: a tragic situation in which someone who doesn't want trouble ends up pre-emptively raiding someone else who also doesn't want trouble, simply because they have no way to trust one other.

ryanac 13y ago

This would be fine if many prisons were not privately owned entities and if most inmates were not overly sentenced for minor drug charges. We also have a growing incarceration rate (U.S), which shows that prison does a pretty poor job of making people "scared absolutely shitless of prison so much that they play exactly by the rules" and don't forget, sometimes the rules are pretty ridiculous. Also "...individuals that would love to sit around with a bunch of other lazy-asses and be fed 3 meals a day. For free." is already the reality of the situation in many cases. It's not a choice between the scariest most brutal situation you can imagine or no prison at all. There are other options to make a better system. And in general, a society shouldn't have to be scared into "playing by the rules". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rat... Also read prison privatization.

hoggle 13y ago
True, some institutions shouldn't be privatized at all even though it might look like it's cheaper or more efficient to do so. It's not always about money, at least not here in Austria. I'm glad we have a baseline level of wealth. Do we always need more? Trying to be better, faster, stronger? When do we stop? Does it make sense in the end? Is it even really guaranteed to be the most productive strategy? Isn't the fact that I can walk through the most "sketchy" Vienna neighborhoods in the middle of the night worth quite a bit? Again I'm not talking about money here.

king_jester 13y ago

> Prison has to be scary. It has to strike one as the number one place that you do not want to go. It's the other ultimate consequence, along side of death. I can't imagine this world if it wasn't. Prison is not a deterrent. If it was, you would see prison population decline over time. Instead, it has grown quite significantly and in a racist way (black men are massively overrepresented and sent to prison).

prawks 13y ago
I think it's likely this is not because of the prison as much as it is the laws which determine what crimes are punishable by prison sentences, and the people who enforce and judge on those laws.
freehunter 13y ago
Just because prison population is rising does not mean that people are choosing to go to prison. The criminal justice system is choosing to send more and more people to prison for offenses that would not have incurred prison time in the past.
- gknoy 13y ago
  More importantly, the people that do the Very Bad Things that we want prison to deter often do not think enough about their actions to consider the possible consequences, and also don't really think that it could happen to them. When people don't even think consequences will ever apply to them, how can the consequence act as a deterrent?
  - jessedhillon 13y ago
    What are the sources of these assertions? This seems like sheer speculation, or common-sensical reasoning -- do you know anyone from prison? Have you conducted some kind of psychological survey of prisoners?

munin 13y ago

if this view was correct, then surely countries with even harsher penalties for breaking the law, such as even worse prisons or death, would have less crime than the united states, right?

dllthomas 13y ago
While I disagree with the parent, this is not a solid argument. It's entirely plausible, without further data introduced into the conversation, that (say) Americans have a higher penchant for crime, and so our prisons need to be correspondingly harsher, and simply aren't harsher enough.

yardie 13y ago

> You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison Or from another point of view what makes prison less scary than the outside world? Everyone knows prison is unpleasant yet that doesn't appear to stop the increasing numbers each year. > Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. If this was a performance review they should be fired.

columbo 13y ago

> Prison has to be scary. No it doesn't. The problem with chest-thumping-ego-driven-bullshit like this is that it is very fact-adverse and causes more problems than it solves. Your type of prison is nothing more than a gang training camp. Start here: https://www.google.com/search?q=rehabilitation+vs+punishment+site%3A.edu+filetype%3Apdf https://www.google.com/search?q=rehabilitation+vs+punishment... And don't stop until about page 200ish.

shoover 13y ago
Are you referring to a particular article or 200 pages of search results?
Someone 13y ago
For an example of a not so or at least less scary prison: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//www.nrc.nl/stevendejong/2013/05/31/de-straf-is-vrijheidsbeneming-wij-voegen-geen-leed-toe/ http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&... TLDR version: "the punishment is being locked up; we do not add to the suffering." Google translate is decent at times, funny at other times (the vulture entering the scene is a translation of the prison director's surname), and woefully incorrect at others ("e.g. The IBT'ers still put their helmets on and not ask first what's going on" should be "don't put their helmets on but ask first what's going on"), but I think the message comes across. Two things to add: 1) the "for life system" (rightfully, IMO) is under scrutiny from the EU because, effectively, nobody ever is pardoned. 2) there are stronger regimes in some prisons.

Confusion 13y ago

Western European prisons, Australian prisons, Japanese prisons and prisons in other civilized, well-developed, rich countries are much nicer to stay in than American prisons and still our criminal problem isn't nearly as large as yours. I'm not the least bit afraid of going to prison here. Still I don't break the law, for reasons better than fear of prison.

cobrausn 13y ago
On the subject of prison harshness I don't think holding up Japan as a model of care and compassion is a good idea (link is old but not much has changed, I hear). http://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/08/world/prisons-in-japan-are-safe-but-harsh.html http://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/08/world/prisons-in-japan-are...
vacri 13y ago
On youtube there's a tv show "Australia's Hardest Prison", a max-security prison in WA. In it the warden is seen saying (paraphrased) "we try to do rehabilitation here, and the people you read in the newspapers calling for longer sentence simply don't understand prisons". There is also a grey-haired American prisoner who has been in several prisons in several countries. He has the opportunity to return to the US for imprisonment there, and he refuses, wanting to finish his life sentence in Aus because "it's... humane". Then you can click on any of the "America's hardest prisons" videos and they're all about using fear to keep you in line, overcrowding, so on and so forth. There's no overriding philosophy of embetterment, or if there is, it's merely lip-service.

sophacles 13y ago

Obviously the thought of prison doesn't in fact stop people from breaking the rules. The prison population is in fact growing. Similarly many places have prisons that are very unlike the US prisons, and yet they have lower crime rates. So the evidence against the core of your argument is pretty strong. At some point, when the punishment for minor offenses is extreme, the difference between minor offenses and major offenses gets very blurry. Extreme example: if stealing carries a punishment that is effectively the same as murder, the only logical thing to do when stealing is murder any potential witnesses. The US isn't quite this bad. However, when the actual punishment for minor crime includes the concept of a felony record, it becomes much harder to differentiate between minor possession of drugs and say grand theft. They both carry felony record issues. That means the being convicted of either results in prison, exclusion from most of the work force for life, the inability to participate in a lot of "better yourself" programs (and really, people who messed up earlier in life should be encouraged to be in these!) and a host of other life long punishments. I understand this is a bit tangential to your point, but bear with me... Now, when you look at the way the US justice system actually does things, you get this perception of arbitrariness or even randomness. The threat of prison is there, but there is no intuitive logic to how it works. Carrying some drugs will get you 20 guaranteed years in prison, while murdering someone will get you maybe 5, maybe 100. Raping someone will get you less time than "hacking". Racial discrepancies exist too in how prison is applied, as do wealth issues. There is parole/early release, and differences between judges and prosecutorial discretion further complicating the punishment question. Whether or not there is good, deep, and sound defensible logic in how this works, the appearance is that there is no way of determining how you'll punished for what you're doing. As such, once the decision has been made to do something relatively harmless, the deterrent effect of prison no longer applies. The rational choice is "punishment, when it happens, could be anything", therefore the game is no about deciding actions based on punishment, it is deciding actions based on getting caught. Any action, no matter how severe, that lessens your chance of getting caught is better than a less severe action which doesn't modify or worsens the chance of conviction. Basically my point is that when you want to use prisons to deter bad behavior, you better make it obvious that their application is something that can be reasoned about. As it stands, prison can't be included in any reasoning about consequences, except in an overly simplistic binary matter that has no effect at curbing any behavior once it is on the table.

khafra 13y ago

> Prison has to be scary. It has to strike one as the number one place that you do not want to go. It's the other ultimate consequence, along side of death. I can't imagine this world if it wasn't. If your theory were accurate, countries like Norway--with its extremely humane prisons (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.htm...) would be crime-ridden hellholes. But Norway's homicide rate is 1/10th that of the United States, and other crime statistics are similarly low: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... So it seems you are, in fact, wrong; and inflicting horrifying suffering indiscriminately on anyone who goes to prison does more harm than good.

vasco 13y ago
You cannot make that assumption, there can be other factors that lower the rate to 1/10th and without those it could actually be 10x just because "prison isn't scary". I'm not taking any sides but you can't make that jump without controlling every other variable.
- mercurial 13y ago
  You're correct. However, some related variables like a low recidivism rate check out. Not to mention the same phenomenons in other Nordic countries.

mcherm 13y ago

> I know plenty of unmotivated individuals that would love to sit around with a bunch of other lazy-asses and be fed 3 meals a day. For free. Don't you? No. I know absolutely no people who would choose to be put in prison simply because they would be fed. I cannot imagine a wealthy society (and make no bones about it, our society is wealthy enough that people can be fed) which would permit that. > It has to strike one as the number one place that you do not want to go. I can't imagine this world if it wasn't. Try visiting Sweden some day. Or quite a few other places in the world -- almost any country other than the US, which is quite competitive for the world's worst prison system.

gknoy 13y ago
I've read (though I cannot find a link) of a homeless (or sick?) person who commited crimes because he felt prison's shelter + food was better than freezing/starving on the street. Reading the account, it was hard to consider than an irrational decision.
- grecy 13y ago
  in America where if you are poor you are essentially fcked. That is not the case in other Developed countries.
- vacri 13y ago
  Even so, it's not like most of those incarcerated (or even a significant minority) share this guy's story.
sukuriant 13y ago
> No. I know absolutely no people who would choose to be put in prison simply because they would be fed. I cannot imagine a wealthy society (and make no bones about it, our society is wealthy enough that people can be fed) which would permit that. Have you seen The Green Mile? I think that's the name of the movie, where the lead character contemplating committing a crime just so life would be easier again. Some people do chose prison; or, enough of their friends are in prison that it's not actually seen as a 'bad thing' for them to be in there. Add to that how we as a society feel about people that have come from prison and are a felon; and sometimes, life may actually be easier for some people on the inside.

cabalamat 13y ago

Yet prison isn't as scary in Norway and they have lower crimes rates than the USA. So your argument is wrong.

mikeash 13y ago

Why bother with prison at all, if that's your attitude? Just execute all lawbreakers and be done with it. The answer is that not all crimes are created equal, and neither should all punishments. You can go to prison for very mundane stuff.

skrebbel 13y ago

Upvoted to counter the ridiculous downvote legion. I fully disagree with your point, but it's a fair point worthy of HN, and I applaud you for uttering what is clearly a minority opinion here.

Karunamon 13y ago
Advocating what amounts to rape and torture just because we don't break it into its components (it's tacitly accepted, after all) is utterly abhorrent and deserves every step closer to invisible that it's getting.
- skrebbel 13y ago
  Soo, people who you disagree with should be stopped from spreading their opinions? Come on, it's not that extreme, he's supporting the status quo. It's not like he's saying that all <minority X> should be killed. For comparison's sake, I once wrote here that "the Israeli government are a bunch of nazis" (and I'm still ashamed of that), and I got fewer downvotes (which doesn't make any sense at all, it was a horrible and worthless thing to write). In fact, people who disagreed with me took on the discussion and I learned a lot. That's what HN should be about. I really don't understand why supporting the current US prison system is an opinion so dangerous that it must be hidden from sight. Also, if you would've carefully read his post, you'd have seen that he doesn't advocate rape and torture, but the perception of it. It's a subtle difference, but a significant one.
  - Karunamon 13y ago
    >Soo, people who you disagree with should be stopped from spreading their opinions? Nobody's stopping anybody from spreading their opinion, last I checked. I said the downvotes were deserved. Not only for being factually incorrect, ("Prison has to be scary", which is the whole premise of the post, is handily disproved by looking at some of the Nordic nations' systems), but for perpetuating the kind of culture that allows solitary confinement (i.e. psychological torture) and prison rape to be accepted by otherwise sane and caring people. The culture of "whatever happens to guys in prison is their own fault" NEEDS to stop.

yoster 13y ago

How about all the innocent people who end up in prison? A small fraction of those people are exonerated. Imagine if you were sent to prison because of the color of your skin, you were falsely accused, or just because of plain corruption? Scrapcode, you better pray that you don't ever end up like one of those unfortunate people. Our justice system is broken and far from being able to be fixed. Justice is a joke, and so far it is truly blind....