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A very sad read and the comments are even worse. This sort of thing so clearly crosses the line in to inhumanity. I appreciate that some/many of these inmates h

A very sad read and the comments are even worse. This sort of thing so clearly crosses the line in to inhumanity. I appreciate that some/many of these inmates have committed awful crimes but it seems that this particular system offers no opportunity for rehabilitation and is focussed solely on punishment. I forget where I read it but I believe that there is a correlation between the severity of the punishment and it's peak effect. If it is normal imprisonment then the effect of the punishment plateaus at 18 months (ish) and if it is solitary then the (albeit greater) effect of the punishment plateaus at 30 days, after that it is achieving no extra punishment and you may as well go back in to a rehabilitation mode. I'm not saying that prison sentences should be no longer than 18 months but after this point the focus should be on (eventual) reintegration into society with new skills and education to keep them from reoffending.

philwelch 13y ago
It's not about rehabilitation or punishment. It's far more cynical than that. It's simply a matter of separating people from the population. Prisoners are separated from the free population; especially dangerous prisoners are separated even from the prison population.
- ippisl 13y ago
  It's pretty easy to physically separate people but still let them communicate with others. It looks like revenge.
  - philwelch 13y ago
    Not letting them communicate is often the point. You don't want someone running a gang or something from prison.
- Houshalter 13y ago
  The main purpose of prison is to act as a disincentive. A lot of people don't commit crimes in the first place because they are scared of going to prison.
  - EliRivers 13y ago
    The evidence appears to indicate that it's far less effective as a disincentive than people hope. For prison to work as a disincentive, people need to be capable of making sensible decisions about what to do NOW in order to create a better distant future. They often aren't. Criminals are often people who do very badly at this. They don't want to be in prison twenty years from now, but it's not going to affect how they live their life now. If prisons as thought of as primarily a disincentive, it's a very expensive way of getting not much back. I expect it's a cultural thing.
    - Houshalter 13y ago
      How can you know how many people don't commit crimes because they fear prison? Yes the people who currently are in prison are the ones who didn't think they would get caught, but there are people who are not in prison because they did consider that. Yes there are cheaper and more effective disincentives, but you're right it is a cultural thing. Our culture considers those barbaric (but not prison somehow.)
      - EliRivers 13y ago
        "How can you know how many people don't commit crimes because they fear prison?" It's very difficult. We can look at the fact that the US imprisons more of its population than any other nation, and if prison is a working deterrent, this would mean that the United States is a phenomenally lawless and criminal society barely held in check by the fear of the USA's notoriously harsh judicial system. Is the USA a phenomenally lawless and criminal society? There are studies that try to evaluate the deterrence effect of prison. Some conclude yes, some no, but the weight of evidence appears to indicates that on the whole, it's a pretty ineffective deterrent. You can google as well as I can so I won't list a bunch of google hits. "Our culture considers those barbaric (but not prison somehow.)" Now that is interesting. I meant a detention system that actually works; that actually is applied with the intention of turning criminals into good citizens and making a better society. I assume that you don't consider that "barbaric", so I'm guessing you thought I meant something like state-sanctioned torture or other such physical abuse, or cutting off people's hands, or public executions in the town square, and all that sort of thing. So our cultural gap is so big that the first thing you thought of to deal with detention as an ineffective deterrent wasn't an effective detention system, but harsher punishments, whereas I thought of stopping trying to use it as a deterrent and do something useful with it.
- leoh 13y ago
  True. But you can separate people in a manner that isn't cruel. In fact, if the American system wasn't so cruel, there would probably be a better chance that inmates would recover from antisocial behavior. Many of these prisoners have seen cruelty and haven't been raised properly from the day they were born. They don't need more cruelty. They need care. Some of them haven't had even decent health a single day I their lives—nutritionally, emotionally, etc. And it's not their fault. It's largely our society's fault.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Yet most countries, if not all democracies, do it far more humanely than the US does. Why? Why is the self appointed leader of the free world so inhumane?
  - infinitone 13y ago
    Because it isn't a free world but a mere illusion. Through deception you have been taught that this is what freedom is when its quite the contrary in most cases.
- ctdonath 13y ago
  It's also about preventing incarceration problems which have happened before. Like stupid warning signs proliferating on common products (I recall counting 18 warning signs on a bus door), solitary confinement cells are the result of solving problems with highly motivated, creative, and dangerous people. The result is something inhumane - because too often the occupant is.
psionski 13y ago
This is not punishment, this is revenge. Punishment is a corrective action, this breaks them even more. By the way, this is extremely dangerous - to paraphrase Nietzsche: in solitude, whatever you bring with you grows. Do we really want whatever they're bringing to grow?
- simonbarker87 13y ago
  Good point, I wasn't thinking of the revenge aspect. I guess the system in this case feels like it's purpose is to exact revenge on behalf of society
  - AnthonyMouse 13y ago
    I don't really buy revenge as a distinct thing from punishment. Revenge is just the lizard brain's conception of punishment as a general method for social behavior modification without the benefit of statistics or specific evidence. Which is the reason why it isn't a legitimate goal. Punishment in proportion to the offense and targeted using evidence to achieve the desired results can be socially beneficial. Revenge is nothing but undirected violence rooted in irrational anger and fear.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - psionski 13y ago
      You have quite different intentions when you're punishing your child because he didn't do his homework vs. when you're punishing your friend because he stole your girlfriend. In one case you aim for blood, in the other - for betterment and growth. Intention makes all the difference here, otherwise, they are, like you say, both just forms of violence.
- InclinedPlane 13y ago
  Precisely so, the criminal justice system is incredibly vengeful. The widespread toleration of sexual assault against prisoners is perhaps the easiest proof of that.

philwelch 13y ago

It's not about rehabilitation or punishment. It's far more cynical than that. It's simply a matter of separating people from the population. Prisoners are separated from the free population; especially dangerous prisoners are separated even from the prison population.

ippisl 13y ago
It's pretty easy to physically separate people but still let them communicate with others. It looks like revenge.
- philwelch 13y ago
  Not letting them communicate is often the point. You don't want someone running a gang or something from prison.
Houshalter 13y ago
The main purpose of prison is to act as a disincentive. A lot of people don't commit crimes in the first place because they are scared of going to prison.
- EliRivers 13y ago
  The evidence appears to indicate that it's far less effective as a disincentive than people hope. For prison to work as a disincentive, people need to be capable of making sensible decisions about what to do NOW in order to create a better distant future. They often aren't. Criminals are often people who do very badly at this. They don't want to be in prison twenty years from now, but it's not going to affect how they live their life now. If prisons as thought of as primarily a disincentive, it's a very expensive way of getting not much back. I expect it's a cultural thing.
  - Houshalter 13y ago
    How can you know how many people don't commit crimes because they fear prison? Yes the people who currently are in prison are the ones who didn't think they would get caught, but there are people who are not in prison because they did consider that. Yes there are cheaper and more effective disincentives, but you're right it is a cultural thing. Our culture considers those barbaric (but not prison somehow.)
    - EliRivers 13y ago
      "How can you know how many people don't commit crimes because they fear prison?" It's very difficult. We can look at the fact that the US imprisons more of its population than any other nation, and if prison is a working deterrent, this would mean that the United States is a phenomenally lawless and criminal society barely held in check by the fear of the USA's notoriously harsh judicial system. Is the USA a phenomenally lawless and criminal society? There are studies that try to evaluate the deterrence effect of prison. Some conclude yes, some no, but the weight of evidence appears to indicates that on the whole, it's a pretty ineffective deterrent. You can google as well as I can so I won't list a bunch of google hits. "Our culture considers those barbaric (but not prison somehow.)" Now that is interesting. I meant a detention system that actually works; that actually is applied with the intention of turning criminals into good citizens and making a better society. I assume that you don't consider that "barbaric", so I'm guessing you thought I meant something like state-sanctioned torture or other such physical abuse, or cutting off people's hands, or public executions in the town square, and all that sort of thing. So our cultural gap is so big that the first thing you thought of to deal with detention as an ineffective deterrent wasn't an effective detention system, but harsher punishments, whereas I thought of stopping trying to use it as a deterrent and do something useful with it.
leoh 13y ago
True. But you can separate people in a manner that isn't cruel. In fact, if the American system wasn't so cruel, there would probably be a better chance that inmates would recover from antisocial behavior. Many of these prisoners have seen cruelty and haven't been raised properly from the day they were born. They don't need more cruelty. They need care. Some of them haven't had even decent health a single day I their lives—nutritionally, emotionally, etc. And it's not their fault. It's largely our society's fault.
alan_cx 13y ago
Yet most countries, if not all democracies, do it far more humanely than the US does. Why? Why is the self appointed leader of the free world so inhumane?
- infinitone 13y ago
  Because it isn't a free world but a mere illusion. Through deception you have been taught that this is what freedom is when its quite the contrary in most cases.
ctdonath 13y ago
It's also about preventing incarceration problems which have happened before. Like stupid warning signs proliferating on common products (I recall counting 18 warning signs on a bus door), solitary confinement cells are the result of solving problems with highly motivated, creative, and dangerous people. The result is something inhumane - because too often the occupant is.

psionski 13y ago

This is not punishment, this is revenge. Punishment is a corrective action, this breaks them even more. By the way, this is extremely dangerous - to paraphrase Nietzsche: in solitude, whatever you bring with you grows. Do we really want whatever they're bringing to grow?

simonbarker87 13y ago
Good point, I wasn't thinking of the revenge aspect. I guess the system in this case feels like it's purpose is to exact revenge on behalf of society
- AnthonyMouse 13y ago
  I don't really buy revenge as a distinct thing from punishment. Revenge is just the lizard brain's conception of punishment as a general method for social behavior modification without the benefit of statistics or specific evidence. Which is the reason why it isn't a legitimate goal. Punishment in proportion to the offense and targeted using evidence to achieve the desired results can be socially beneficial. Revenge is nothing but undirected violence rooted in irrational anger and fear.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - psionski 13y ago
    You have quite different intentions when you're punishing your child because he didn't do his homework vs. when you're punishing your friend because he stole your girlfriend. In one case you aim for blood, in the other - for betterment and growth. Intention makes all the difference here, otherwise, they are, like you say, both just forms of violence.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
Precisely so, the criminal justice system is incredibly vengeful. The widespread toleration of sexual assault against prisoners is perhaps the easiest proof of that.