5 ms·

Solitary confinement is now so obviously a form of torture that it's surprising this is still controversial. Future generations will surely look on it the way w

by gruseom 13y ago

Solitary confinement is now so obviously a form of torture that it's surprising this is still controversial. Future generations will surely look on it the way we look on past barbarities.

woof 13y ago
Like waterboarding?
- gruseom 13y ago
  Like waterboarding, but also not. Waterboarding was always obviously torture. No fair-minded person would ever have said that it wasn't; the suggestion is a joke. Thus the only people who had reason to say otherwise were ideologues, power-wielders, and bootlicking journalists. Solitary confinement isn't like that, and it has taken time for fair-minded people to see it in this light. The fact that the science on it is so unequivocal is a big part of this coming into (some) people's awareness, as well. That's why I said "now so obviously a form of torture". It wasn't obvious before.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Don't forget to include cowards in your list. Many people justifying waterboarding as "not torture" are simply vastly, deeply afraid of terrorism and are willing to justify terrible things so they can feel safe.
    - gruseom 13y ago
      Yeah, that's a fair point. I also should probably not have used such charged language on HN to begin with. It never does any good.
sliverstorm 13y ago
What sets it apart from other forms of punishment? The definition of "torture" seems somewhat flexible.
- david927 13y ago
  It's certainly considered psychological torture when lasting more than a few weeks. There are a lot of good studies to back this up. Here's a great article to get your started: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_...
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Only to a torturer seeking self justification. Which makes them guilty because to seek self justification one must know one is doing some thing wrong.
ZirconCode 13y ago
The problem is that psychological forms of harm are not treated with as much respect as physical forms. There are no pictures of it, you cannot see it. It is the same reason why people struggle to see a psychiatrist but not a doctor. Lack of sleep is also deployed in some countries ie. the guards won't let you sleep.
- nraynaud 13y ago
  The real problem is that the US is part of no international treaty on human rights. Turkey and France have a way more fair process now thanks to the European Court of Human Rights. They have also put hard limits on terrorist law etc. It's slow but it's a real adult supervising the local politicians with true values.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    The US vigorously refuses to be part of any of that. Now you know why.
- InclinedPlane 13y ago
  Even physical forms of harm are downplayed if they have lower visibility than traditional forms of brutality and torture. This is a widespread trend especially in law enforcement and justice and it extends beyond prisons. Consider waterboarding. It's a hugely traumatic experience, and undoubtedly a form of torture, but because it doesn't leave bruises or break bones it is tolerated and accepted. Consider tasers and pepper spray (OC). Again, they cause pain or muscle spasms, but they don't break bones or cause bleeding or bruising so their use is tolerated at thresholds far below what would be allowed to bring about the use of physical force, even for use in restraining someone. Being pepper sprayed in the face and eyes is every bit as traumatic and physically violent as being slapped or punched, yet pepper spray is frequently used by the police in situations where physical force would be considered police brutality. The same goes for tasers.
guard-of-terra 13y ago
I don't see how, given that hell is other people, and other people in prison are quite infernal. If I ever get in prison (which I hope to avoid but nobody can be guaranteed) I hope to be in solitary.
- Mordor 13y ago
  Perhaps the real hell is being left alone.
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    I tried both in my life and being left alone is so much better than forced to be with other random hostile people.
    - mcintyre1994 13y ago
      You tried being a solitary person (and decided it's for you; fair enough), not being locked in solitary confinement. Read this article, the difference is staggering.
    - apalmer 13y ago
      you do not really have a true concept of what solitary confinement really means. You are viewing solitary confinement like alone time. Human nature is such that most human beings do not psychologically deal well with being deprived of all human contact for extended periods of time. Some humans can do fine with solitary but it is a very very small percentage. I do know someone who did go to prison and basically was a slim straight haired indian prettyboy teenager in american jail... his approach was from the first day he entered prison he immediately attacked the first person he saw, went to solitary got out immediately attacked the first person he saw, did that for about 3-6 months... eventually he was so nuts he joined a gang, he liked the gang life better than the solitary
- yardie 13y ago
  I think you fail to grasp what solitary actually means in the prison tense. It's not a few hours of sitting on the floor meditating. It is 1 hour of sunlight, you don't go anywhere, there are no computers. I used to think like that when I was younger, "going to prison getting raped?! I'll take solitary." Then someone that was released spoke at our college about what solitary really meant. I'll take my chances with the rapists.
honzzz 13y ago
> Solitary confinement is now so obviously a form of torture that it's surprising this is still controversial. Future generations will surely look on it the way we look on past barbarities. There might be some ethnocentrism here... I might be wrong but it seems to me like you make an assumption about this generation that is only valid in US. I live in Europe and when I think about people I know, there is nothing controversial about it and we don't have to wait for future generations - we consider it barbaric now and as far as I know it's illegal - I mean people can be put to cells alone but they can read books, they have right to go for a walk with other prisoners for an hour and stuff like that - when I talk about solitary confinement I mean conditions described in that article. I am not trying to be judgemental here - I just think that for some Americans it might be interesting to consider that in some countries things like solitary confinement or death penalty can be looked at the same or similar way that you Americans probably look at punishments like stoning to death or cutting off hands.
- dmix 13y ago
  After a bit of research, I believe this also may be an ethnocentric view, it seems solitary confinement is only banned in Europe and still used in many other places (including the very liberal Canada). Even the UN has only made it torture if it's some <18yrs old. But that being said, I'm all for ending it. Or ending most imprisonment and moving towards restorative justice.

by gruseom 13y ago

Solitary confinement is now so obviously a form of torture that it's surprising this is still controversial. Future generations will surely look on it the way we look on past barbarities.

woof 13y ago

Like waterboarding?

gruseom 13y ago
Like waterboarding, but also not. Waterboarding was always obviously torture. No fair-minded person would ever have said that it wasn't; the suggestion is a joke. Thus the only people who had reason to say otherwise were ideologues, power-wielders, and bootlicking journalists. Solitary confinement isn't like that, and it has taken time for fair-minded people to see it in this light. The fact that the science on it is so unequivocal is a big part of this coming into (some) people's awareness, as well. That's why I said "now so obviously a form of torture". It wasn't obvious before.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Don't forget to include cowards in your list. Many people justifying waterboarding as "not torture" are simply vastly, deeply afraid of terrorism and are willing to justify terrible things so they can feel safe.
  - gruseom 13y ago
    Yeah, that's a fair point. I also should probably not have used such charged language on HN to begin with. It never does any good.

sliverstorm 13y ago

What sets it apart from other forms of punishment? The definition of "torture" seems somewhat flexible.

david927 13y ago
It's certainly considered psychological torture when lasting more than a few weeks. There are a lot of good studies to back this up. Here's a great article to get your started: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_...
alan_cx 13y ago
Only to a torturer seeking self justification. Which makes them guilty because to seek self justification one must know one is doing some thing wrong.

ZirconCode 13y ago

The problem is that psychological forms of harm are not treated with as much respect as physical forms. There are no pictures of it, you cannot see it. It is the same reason why people struggle to see a psychiatrist but not a doctor. Lack of sleep is also deployed in some countries ie. the guards won't let you sleep.

nraynaud 13y ago
The real problem is that the US is part of no international treaty on human rights. Turkey and France have a way more fair process now thanks to the European Court of Human Rights. They have also put hard limits on terrorist law etc. It's slow but it's a real adult supervising the local politicians with true values.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  The US vigorously refuses to be part of any of that. Now you know why.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
Even physical forms of harm are downplayed if they have lower visibility than traditional forms of brutality and torture. This is a widespread trend especially in law enforcement and justice and it extends beyond prisons. Consider waterboarding. It's a hugely traumatic experience, and undoubtedly a form of torture, but because it doesn't leave bruises or break bones it is tolerated and accepted. Consider tasers and pepper spray (OC). Again, they cause pain or muscle spasms, but they don't break bones or cause bleeding or bruising so their use is tolerated at thresholds far below what would be allowed to bring about the use of physical force, even for use in restraining someone. Being pepper sprayed in the face and eyes is every bit as traumatic and physically violent as being slapped or punched, yet pepper spray is frequently used by the police in situations where physical force would be considered police brutality. The same goes for tasers.

guard-of-terra 13y ago

I don't see how, given that hell is other people, and other people in prison are quite infernal. If I ever get in prison (which I hope to avoid but nobody can be guaranteed) I hope to be in solitary.

Mordor 13y ago
Perhaps the real hell is being left alone.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  I tried both in my life and being left alone is so much better than forced to be with other random hostile people.
  - mcintyre1994 13y ago
    You tried being a solitary person (and decided it's for you; fair enough), not being locked in solitary confinement. Read this article, the difference is staggering.
  - apalmer 13y ago
    you do not really have a true concept of what solitary confinement really means. You are viewing solitary confinement like alone time. Human nature is such that most human beings do not psychologically deal well with being deprived of all human contact for extended periods of time. Some humans can do fine with solitary but it is a very very small percentage. I do know someone who did go to prison and basically was a slim straight haired indian prettyboy teenager in american jail... his approach was from the first day he entered prison he immediately attacked the first person he saw, went to solitary got out immediately attacked the first person he saw, did that for about 3-6 months... eventually he was so nuts he joined a gang, he liked the gang life better than the solitary
yardie 13y ago
I think you fail to grasp what solitary actually means in the prison tense. It's not a few hours of sitting on the floor meditating. It is 1 hour of sunlight, you don't go anywhere, there are no computers. I used to think like that when I was younger, "going to prison getting raped?! I'll take solitary." Then someone that was released spoke at our college about what solitary really meant. I'll take my chances with the rapists.

honzzz 13y ago

> Solitary confinement is now so obviously a form of torture that it's surprising this is still controversial. Future generations will surely look on it the way we look on past barbarities. There might be some ethnocentrism here... I might be wrong but it seems to me like you make an assumption about this generation that is only valid in US. I live in Europe and when I think about people I know, there is nothing controversial about it and we don't have to wait for future generations - we consider it barbaric now and as far as I know it's illegal - I mean people can be put to cells alone but they can read books, they have right to go for a walk with other prisoners for an hour and stuff like that - when I talk about solitary confinement I mean conditions described in that article. I am not trying to be judgemental here - I just think that for some Americans it might be interesting to consider that in some countries things like solitary confinement or death penalty can be looked at the same or similar way that you Americans probably look at punishments like stoning to death or cutting off hands.

dmix 13y ago
After a bit of research, I believe this also may be an ethnocentric view, it seems solitary confinement is only banned in Europe and still used in many other places (including the very liberal Canada). Even the UN has only made it torture if it's some <18yrs old. But that being said, I'm all for ending it. Or ending most imprisonment and moving towards restorative justice.