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"Plus, I was graduating with a degree in English and history, which, though valuable to me, is more or less monetarily worthless." I can't imagine spending ten

"Plus, I was graduating with a degree in English and history, which, though valuable to me, is more or less monetarily worthless." I can't imagine spending tens of thousands of dollars on something that is monetarily worthless just because it is of personal value to me. That seems incredibly self indulgent.

szx 13y ago
This: "I have little patience for critics who don’t see the value in a liberal arts education. We don’t mock people who have children -- and there’s no practical value to having children."
- 300bps 13y ago
  In many cultures children take care of the parents in their old age. Is that not practical value? In farming cultures, the more children you have the more workers you have. That seems practical as well. I think his analogy is flawed.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    I agree the analogy is flawed, but that doesn't invalidate his argument. People have all kinds of hobbies that add no real practical value to their lives, other than that they enjoy doing it, and we don't typically make fun of people for those.
    - lern_too_spel 13y ago
      We make fun of anybody who goes into debt for those hobbies.
    - Crake 13y ago
      "I have little patience for critics who don’t see the value in a liberal arts education. We don’t mock people who have children -- and there’s no practical value to having children." The fact that after spending so much money on his libarts degree, he'd use the skills from his "education" to make such a terribly stupid and obviously factually wrong analogy just proves his critics right, invalidating his argument. (Many people have kids because they want to be taken care of. Duh.) No matter how many of one's fellow liberal arts peers might preen about their fancy, overpriced sheepskins, the fact is that these would be emperors in reality have no clothes. (God forbid you point that out to them, though.) "We don’t mock people who play the guitar, or go on walks in the woods. Why should we mock people who want to learn about their world and learn about themselves?" Yes, perhaps, but if someone spent $200,000 on a beginner's guitar, or paid $30,000 for the a membership to a private property to go walk in your everyday typical (and accessible for free at a metro park) woods, we'd definitely be side eying them for it.
tekacs 13y ago
I'm pretty sure food falls into that category. :P Edge cases aside, surely 'learning how to think' or indeed just learning is tremendously valuable - surely the ultimate value that all other kinds are implicitly converted to (cf. heat in thermodynamics[1]) is 'personal value' such as satisfaction? [1]: A simplistic view, please don't flame me. :/
- grannyg00se 13y ago
  Valuable for sure. A lot of things are personally valuable but you don't necessarily spend tens of thousands of dollars on them - especially when they have no monetary value. And you have no real income.
Avshalom 13y ago
So uh. What do you eat? Any hobbies? Pay more than a couple grand for a car? Underwear, do you own any?
- grannyg00se 13y ago
  Not sure why you're interested in my personal situation but here goes.... Food is a necessity - plus it's not monetarily worthless. I don't spend tens of thousands of dollars on my hobbies - they're near free. I sold my car last year and don't plan on buying one again. But when I purchased it, I definitely made a self indulgent choice. I don't claim to be immune to temptation. But more to the point, it was never monetarily worthless and didn't put me tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Underwear? I'm not sure what kind of fancy underwear would cost tens of thousands of dollars, but I'd definitely like to know more about that.
dasil003 13y ago
Really? When I hear self-indulgent I tend to think of your average American couch-potato lifestyle. This type of self-indulgence where you engage your love of learning for learning's sake doesn't really seem so bad in the grand scheme of things.
- grannyg00se 13y ago
  His self indulgence resulted in a debt burden his felt quite threatened by. I'm not saying it's so bad though.
vijayr 13y ago
incredibly self indulgent How? There are people who spend thousands of dollars on shoes, clothes etc. Heck, how many of us here spend tons of money on the latest gadget? Compared to these, spending money learning something just because he wanted to, is way better. And in any case, it is his money (well, it was a loan, still..), so he can spend however he wants (same goes for people who spend tons of money on the latest and greatest fad - it is their money)
- grannyg00se 13y ago
  You can absolutely spend however you wish. The fact is we live in a pretty self indulgent society. Yes, if you spend thousands of dollars on shoes (per year, lets say) I'd consider that to be pretty self indulgent. But if you can afford it, why not right? I think where it gets a bit unreasonable is when you have to start living a lifestyle that you'd rather not live because of your self indulgence. Though I'm not sure that is the reality in this case.
wonderzombie 13y ago
Not everybody is a rational, utility-maximizing machine. This "something" has less substance than a durable good but may provide a great deal of subjective value. And, as for myself, rather than questioning the value of such an education in the first place, I consider it a problem that this it's as expensive as it is. I also consider myself lucky that my passions and desires happen to align with -- or are at least complimentary with -- my economic interests.
circlefavshape 13y ago
This is one of the oddest things I've read on HN. What do you think money is FOR?
dagw 13y ago
I've probably spent tens of thousands of dollars over the years traveling and other experiences that are monetarily worthless. And honestly I probably consider it the best money I've ever spent.

szx 13y ago

This: "I have little patience for critics who don’t see the value in a liberal arts education. We don’t mock people who have children -- and there’s no practical value to having children."

300bps 13y ago
In many cultures children take care of the parents in their old age. Is that not practical value? In farming cultures, the more children you have the more workers you have. That seems practical as well. I think his analogy is flawed.
- mpyne 13y ago
  I agree the analogy is flawed, but that doesn't invalidate his argument. People have all kinds of hobbies that add no real practical value to their lives, other than that they enjoy doing it, and we don't typically make fun of people for those.
  - lern_too_spel 13y ago
    We make fun of anybody who goes into debt for those hobbies.
  - Crake 13y ago
    "I have little patience for critics who don’t see the value in a liberal arts education. We don’t mock people who have children -- and there’s no practical value to having children." The fact that after spending so much money on his libarts degree, he'd use the skills from his "education" to make such a terribly stupid and obviously factually wrong analogy just proves his critics right, invalidating his argument. (Many people have kids because they want to be taken care of. Duh.) No matter how many of one's fellow liberal arts peers might preen about their fancy, overpriced sheepskins, the fact is that these would be emperors in reality have no clothes. (God forbid you point that out to them, though.) "We don’t mock people who play the guitar, or go on walks in the woods. Why should we mock people who want to learn about their world and learn about themselves?" Yes, perhaps, but if someone spent $200,000 on a beginner's guitar, or paid $30,000 for the a membership to a private property to go walk in your everyday typical (and accessible for free at a metro park) woods, we'd definitely be side eying them for it.

tekacs 13y ago

I'm pretty sure food falls into that category. :P Edge cases aside, surely 'learning how to think' or indeed just learning is tremendously valuable - surely the ultimate value that all other kinds are implicitly converted to (cf. heat in thermodynamics[1]) is 'personal value' such as satisfaction? [1]: A simplistic view, please don't flame me. :/

grannyg00se 13y ago
Valuable for sure. A lot of things are personally valuable but you don't necessarily spend tens of thousands of dollars on them - especially when they have no monetary value. And you have no real income.

Avshalom 13y ago

So uh. What do you eat? Any hobbies? Pay more than a couple grand for a car? Underwear, do you own any?

grannyg00se 13y ago
Not sure why you're interested in my personal situation but here goes.... Food is a necessity - plus it's not monetarily worthless. I don't spend tens of thousands of dollars on my hobbies - they're near free. I sold my car last year and don't plan on buying one again. But when I purchased it, I definitely made a self indulgent choice. I don't claim to be immune to temptation. But more to the point, it was never monetarily worthless and didn't put me tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Underwear? I'm not sure what kind of fancy underwear would cost tens of thousands of dollars, but I'd definitely like to know more about that.

dasil003 13y ago

Really? When I hear self-indulgent I tend to think of your average American couch-potato lifestyle. This type of self-indulgence where you engage your love of learning for learning's sake doesn't really seem so bad in the grand scheme of things.

grannyg00se 13y ago
His self indulgence resulted in a debt burden his felt quite threatened by. I'm not saying it's so bad though.

vijayr 13y ago

incredibly self indulgent How? There are people who spend thousands of dollars on shoes, clothes etc. Heck, how many of us here spend tons of money on the latest gadget? Compared to these, spending money learning something just because he wanted to, is way better. And in any case, it is his money (well, it was a loan, still..), so he can spend however he wants (same goes for people who spend tons of money on the latest and greatest fad - it is their money)

grannyg00se 13y ago
You can absolutely spend however you wish. The fact is we live in a pretty self indulgent society. Yes, if you spend thousands of dollars on shoes (per year, lets say) I'd consider that to be pretty self indulgent. But if you can afford it, why not right? I think where it gets a bit unreasonable is when you have to start living a lifestyle that you'd rather not live because of your self indulgence. Though I'm not sure that is the reality in this case.

wonderzombie 13y ago

Not everybody is a rational, utility-maximizing machine. This "something" has less substance than a durable good but may provide a great deal of subjective value. And, as for myself, rather than questioning the value of such an education in the first place, I consider it a problem that this it's as expensive as it is. I also consider myself lucky that my passions and desires happen to align with -- or are at least complimentary with -- my economic interests.

circlefavshape 13y ago

This is one of the oddest things I've read on HN. What do you think money is FOR?

dagw 13y ago

I've probably spent tens of thousands of dollars over the years traveling and other experiences that are monetarily worthless. And honestly I probably consider it the best money I've ever spent.