4 ms·

i came here to say something like this, albeit a lot less tactfully. that said, i admit that i'm torn. on the one hand, we definitely need people to study hist

i came here to say something like this, albeit a lot less tactfully. that said, i admit that i'm torn. on the one hand, we definitely need people to study history, language, writing, etc. the arts, and the liberal arts, are what help define a culture and help us develop that culture, those values, and pass them down and create a rich history. i wish our society valued that more, or rather appreciated what we have (and are at risk of losing). the other side of it is the practical side. when i read that he had difficulty finding an internship at newspapers, that he had to push carts at home depot i thought "shouldn't that have been a sign to him that he's going to have difficulties in finding a role in the job market?" but the risk is that we, as a society, push towards vocational schools and away from developing thinkers, and that we stagnate because of that. i'm glad he's writing about it and finding traction there, i assume he can use that to pay down his debt. that said not everyone - not by a long shot - can do that. the consumer marketplace just doesn't have that capacity. this leaves me to wonder, then, about what roles we as a society have for the bulk of the people out there, and how to best serve them for education, expectations, and our future survivability. i am not creative enough to have any good ideas to help solve that challenge.

sliverstorm 13y ago
It seems to me the problem is not that we don't value history, language, etc- it's that it has become commoditized, as so many people get degrees in those fields. That probably drives down wages and drives up tuition.
- roc 13y ago
  Tuition is rising, across the board, without much regard for marketability of degrees. It's more a function of the way society values school 'brands' and the way government guarantees abet this behavior by allowing essentially anyone to borrow as much as they want for whatever they want. (Want to get a run-of-the-mill BA from an outrageously-expensive private college? Just sign here.) I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that the government should cap loans by degree-marketability or restrict school selection by a grading of school outcomes, but either a massive social re-valuation of tuition needs to happen, or things along those lines are going to need to be approached. Our economy can't really grow when every young person is buried under student loan debt for years and years. Particularly not as we've transitioned to defined-contribution retirement plans. A decade of paying off student loan debt would either then be followed by large 'catch-up' contributions to make up the difference -- further delaying/retarding productive economic engagement -- or be underfunded, leading to higher social safety net expenditures when those workers retire without sufficient savings.
- comrade_ogilvy 13y ago
  At no time and no place did a history degree really pay off in terms of monetary compensation for knowledge of history. It was always commoditized, because precise knowledge of historical facts is not greatly compensated for, as the norm. It paid off in terms exercising a mind in the craft of delving into an ambiguous question, forming complex ideas out of evidence, and expressing those ideas in a more concise and accessible form. A history degree is about as a good a "pre-law" or "pre-sales and marketing" degree as any other. As a society, we benefit from people knowing a bit of history. But that is one reason we have public schools, theoretically.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    A degree may traditionally not have paid off monetarily, but it didn't used to put you so far underwater. Which worked out ok- the people that loved the subject did it for the love of the subject, and didn't suffer too greatly financially from it.
GFischer 13y ago
I've heard that Germany is MUCH more pragmatic, and heavily promotes technical and vocational schools, and tries to fit (or strongly pushes/forces?) students into the studies that are more likely to lead to success in the workplace. My uncle works in heavy industry, and he says German workers are vastly better trained than any others he's worked with (mostly from South America, and some from US and China). I've read about the lack of plumbers, carpenters, mechanics and other skilled tradesmen. I believe more people should be taught those (and definitely don't believe them inferior to, say, programming): http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/report-shows-world-shortage-specialized-labor http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/report-shows-worl... About Germany: http://www.imove-germany.de/cps/rde/xchg/imove_projekt_international/hs.xsl/news.htm?content-url=/cps/rde/xchg/imove_projekt_international/hs.xsl/9903.htm http://www.imove-germany.de/cps/rde/xchg/imove_projekt_inter...

sliverstorm 13y ago

It seems to me the problem is not that we don't value history, language, etc- it's that it has become commoditized, as so many people get degrees in those fields. That probably drives down wages and drives up tuition.

roc 13y ago
Tuition is rising, across the board, without much regard for marketability of degrees. It's more a function of the way society values school 'brands' and the way government guarantees abet this behavior by allowing essentially anyone to borrow as much as they want for whatever they want. (Want to get a run-of-the-mill BA from an outrageously-expensive private college? Just sign here.) I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that the government should cap loans by degree-marketability or restrict school selection by a grading of school outcomes, but either a massive social re-valuation of tuition needs to happen, or things along those lines are going to need to be approached. Our economy can't really grow when every young person is buried under student loan debt for years and years. Particularly not as we've transitioned to defined-contribution retirement plans. A decade of paying off student loan debt would either then be followed by large 'catch-up' contributions to make up the difference -- further delaying/retarding productive economic engagement -- or be underfunded, leading to higher social safety net expenditures when those workers retire without sufficient savings.
comrade_ogilvy 13y ago
At no time and no place did a history degree really pay off in terms of monetary compensation for knowledge of history. It was always commoditized, because precise knowledge of historical facts is not greatly compensated for, as the norm. It paid off in terms exercising a mind in the craft of delving into an ambiguous question, forming complex ideas out of evidence, and expressing those ideas in a more concise and accessible form. A history degree is about as a good a "pre-law" or "pre-sales and marketing" degree as any other. As a society, we benefit from people knowing a bit of history. But that is one reason we have public schools, theoretically.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  A degree may traditionally not have paid off monetarily, but it didn't used to put you so far underwater. Which worked out ok- the people that loved the subject did it for the love of the subject, and didn't suffer too greatly financially from it.

GFischer 13y ago

I've heard that Germany is MUCH more pragmatic, and heavily promotes technical and vocational schools, and tries to fit (or strongly pushes/forces?) students into the studies that are more likely to lead to success in the workplace. My uncle works in heavy industry, and he says German workers are vastly better trained than any others he's worked with (mostly from South America, and some from US and China). I've read about the lack of plumbers, carpenters, mechanics and other skilled tradesmen. I believe more people should be taught those (and definitely don't believe them inferior to, say, programming): http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/report-shows-world-shortage-specialized-labor http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/report-shows-worl... About Germany: http://www.imove-germany.de/cps/rde/xchg/imove_projekt_international/hs.xsl/news.htm?content-url=/cps/rde/xchg/imove_projekt_international/hs.xsl/9903.htm http://www.imove-germany.de/cps/rde/xchg/imove_projekt_inter...