4 ms·

More anecdotal evidence that the value of America arts degrees is far less than their over inflated cost

jnazario 13y ago
i came here to say something like this, albeit a lot less tactfully. that said, i admit that i'm torn. on the one hand, we definitely need people to study history, language, writing, etc. the arts, and the liberal arts, are what help define a culture and help us develop that culture, those values, and pass them down and create a rich history. i wish our society valued that more, or rather appreciated what we have (and are at risk of losing). the other side of it is the practical side. when i read that he had difficulty finding an internship at newspapers, that he had to push carts at home depot i thought "shouldn't that have been a sign to him that he's going to have difficulties in finding a role in the job market?" but the risk is that we, as a society, push towards vocational schools and away from developing thinkers, and that we stagnate because of that. i'm glad he's writing about it and finding traction there, i assume he can use that to pay down his debt. that said not everyone - not by a long shot - can do that. the consumer marketplace just doesn't have that capacity. this leaves me to wonder, then, about what roles we as a society have for the bulk of the people out there, and how to best serve them for education, expectations, and our future survivability. i am not creative enough to have any good ideas to help solve that challenge.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  It seems to me the problem is not that we don't value history, language, etc- it's that it has become commoditized, as so many people get degrees in those fields. That probably drives down wages and drives up tuition.
  - roc 13y ago
    Tuition is rising, across the board, without much regard for marketability of degrees. It's more a function of the way society values school 'brands' and the way government guarantees abet this behavior by allowing essentially anyone to borrow as much as they want for whatever they want. (Want to get a run-of-the-mill BA from an outrageously-expensive private college? Just sign here.) I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that the government should cap loans by degree-marketability or restrict school selection by a grading of school outcomes, but either a massive social re-valuation of tuition needs to happen, or things along those lines are going to need to be approached. Our economy can't really grow when every young person is buried under student loan debt for years and years. Particularly not as we've transitioned to defined-contribution retirement plans. A decade of paying off student loan debt would either then be followed by large 'catch-up' contributions to make up the difference -- further delaying/retarding productive economic engagement -- or be underfunded, leading to higher social safety net expenditures when those workers retire without sufficient savings.
  - comrade_ogilvy 13y ago
    At no time and no place did a history degree really pay off in terms of monetary compensation for knowledge of history. It was always commoditized, because precise knowledge of historical facts is not greatly compensated for, as the norm. It paid off in terms exercising a mind in the craft of delving into an ambiguous question, forming complex ideas out of evidence, and expressing those ideas in a more concise and accessible form. A history degree is about as a good a "pre-law" or "pre-sales and marketing" degree as any other. As a society, we benefit from people knowing a bit of history. But that is one reason we have public schools, theoretically.
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      A degree may traditionally not have paid off monetarily, but it didn't used to put you so far underwater. Which worked out ok- the people that loved the subject did it for the love of the subject, and didn't suffer too greatly financially from it.
- GFischer 13y ago
  I've heard that Germany is MUCH more pragmatic, and heavily promotes technical and vocational schools, and tries to fit (or strongly pushes/forces?) students into the studies that are more likely to lead to success in the workplace. My uncle works in heavy industry, and he says German workers are vastly better trained than any others he's worked with (mostly from South America, and some from US and China). I've read about the lack of plumbers, carpenters, mechanics and other skilled tradesmen. I believe more people should be taught those (and definitely don't believe them inferior to, say, programming): http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/report-shows-world-shortage-specialized-labor http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/report-shows-worl... About Germany: http://www.imove-germany.de/cps/rde/xchg/imove_projekt_international/hs.xsl/news.htm?content-url=/cps/rde/xchg/imove_projekt_international/hs.xsl/9903.htm http://www.imove-germany.de/cps/rde/xchg/imove_projekt_inter...
benjamincburns 13y ago
Value is only quantifiable in the context of a purpose. Is a liberal arts degree valuable as an instrument to garner income? Statistically, no. Is it valuable as a set of experiences which help to better understand the world we live in? Absolutely. But does that make it valuable enough to justify the cost? I dunno. Ask Ken Ilgunas.
- tnorthcutt 13y ago
  How can you say for sure it has the second type of value?
  - benjamincburns 13y ago
    > I dunno. Ask Ken Ilgunas. Or to be a bit less of a dick, I think this is a cross between the ancient philosophical question, "how does one know anything to be true?" and the cliché, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." It only holds this kind of value to an individual if the individual thinks it does. [Edit: And just to avoid the bigger philosophical question let's just say that the individual is or isn't confident that it holds this value, not that they know that it does or doesn't. ;-)] Either way, there's always the risk that you aren't getting what you pay for.
- mahyarm 13y ago
  Is that secondary value best given by a college experience or finding it yourself then?
  - benjamincburns 13y ago
    That's an optimization problem. As such it doesn't really fit the context of what I was trying to say. To put my point differently, this is an example of a market which trades extrinsic value for intrinsic value. Sure, some mechanisms are certainly better than others for this purpose, but as is the nature of intrinsic value, "better" can only be defined on a very individual basis.
- lern_too_spel 13y ago
tekacs 13y ago
Points at his own comment elsewhere: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5795016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5795016 Essentially: surely that depends on your notion of value?

i came here to say something like this, albeit a lot less tactfully. that said, i admit that i'm torn. on the one hand, we definitely need people to study history, language, writing, etc. the arts, and the liberal arts, are what help define a culture and help us develop that culture, those values, and pass them down and create a rich history. i wish our society valued that more, or rather appreciated what we have (and are at risk of losing). the other side of it is the practical side. when i read that he had difficulty finding an internship at newspapers, that he had to push carts at home depot i thought "shouldn't that have been a sign to him that he's going to have difficulties in finding a role in the job market?" but the risk is that we, as a society, push towards vocational schools and away from developing thinkers, and that we stagnate because of that. i'm glad he's writing about it and finding traction there, i assume he can use that to pay down his debt. that said not everyone - not by a long shot - can do that. the consumer marketplace just doesn't have that capacity. this leaves me to wonder, then, about what roles we as a society have for the bulk of the people out there, and how to best serve them for education, expectations, and our future survivability. i am not creative enough to have any good ideas to help solve that challenge.

sliverstorm 13y ago
It seems to me the problem is not that we don't value history, language, etc- it's that it has become commoditized, as so many people get degrees in those fields. That probably drives down wages and drives up tuition.
- roc 13y ago
  Tuition is rising, across the board, without much regard for marketability of degrees. It's more a function of the way society values school 'brands' and the way government guarantees abet this behavior by allowing essentially anyone to borrow as much as they want for whatever they want. (Want to get a run-of-the-mill BA from an outrageously-expensive private college? Just sign here.) I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that the government should cap loans by degree-marketability or restrict school selection by a grading of school outcomes, but either a massive social re-valuation of tuition needs to happen, or things along those lines are going to need to be approached. Our economy can't really grow when every young person is buried under student loan debt for years and years. Particularly not as we've transitioned to defined-contribution retirement plans. A decade of paying off student loan debt would either then be followed by large 'catch-up' contributions to make up the difference -- further delaying/retarding productive economic engagement -- or be underfunded, leading to higher social safety net expenditures when those workers retire without sufficient savings.
- comrade_ogilvy 13y ago
  At no time and no place did a history degree really pay off in terms of monetary compensation for knowledge of history. It was always commoditized, because precise knowledge of historical facts is not greatly compensated for, as the norm. It paid off in terms exercising a mind in the craft of delving into an ambiguous question, forming complex ideas out of evidence, and expressing those ideas in a more concise and accessible form. A history degree is about as a good a "pre-law" or "pre-sales and marketing" degree as any other. As a society, we benefit from people knowing a bit of history. But that is one reason we have public schools, theoretically.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    A degree may traditionally not have paid off monetarily, but it didn't used to put you so far underwater. Which worked out ok- the people that loved the subject did it for the love of the subject, and didn't suffer too greatly financially from it.
GFischer 13y ago
I've heard that Germany is MUCH more pragmatic, and heavily promotes technical and vocational schools, and tries to fit (or strongly pushes/forces?) students into the studies that are more likely to lead to success in the workplace. My uncle works in heavy industry, and he says German workers are vastly better trained than any others he's worked with (mostly from South America, and some from US and China). I've read about the lack of plumbers, carpenters, mechanics and other skilled tradesmen. I believe more people should be taught those (and definitely don't believe them inferior to, say, programming): http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/report-shows-world-shortage-specialized-labor http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/report-shows-worl... About Germany: http://www.imove-germany.de/cps/rde/xchg/imove_projekt_international/hs.xsl/news.htm?content-url=/cps/rde/xchg/imove_projekt_international/hs.xsl/9903.htm http://www.imove-germany.de/cps/rde/xchg/imove_projekt_inter...

benjamincburns 13y ago

Value is only quantifiable in the context of a purpose. Is a liberal arts degree valuable as an instrument to garner income? Statistically, no. Is it valuable as a set of experiences which help to better understand the world we live in? Absolutely. But does that make it valuable enough to justify the cost? I dunno. Ask Ken Ilgunas.

tnorthcutt 13y ago
How can you say for sure it has the second type of value?
- benjamincburns 13y ago
  > I dunno. Ask Ken Ilgunas. Or to be a bit less of a dick, I think this is a cross between the ancient philosophical question, "how does one know anything to be true?" and the cliché, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." It only holds this kind of value to an individual if the individual thinks it does. [Edit: And just to avoid the bigger philosophical question let's just say that the individual is or isn't confident that it holds this value, not that they know that it does or doesn't. ;-)] Either way, there's always the risk that you aren't getting what you pay for.
mahyarm 13y ago
Is that secondary value best given by a college experience or finding it yourself then?
- benjamincburns 13y ago
  That's an optimization problem. As such it doesn't really fit the context of what I was trying to say. To put my point differently, this is an example of a market which trades extrinsic value for intrinsic value. Sure, some mechanisms are certainly better than others for this purpose, but as is the nature of intrinsic value, "better" can only be defined on a very individual basis.
lern_too_spel 13y ago

tekacs 13y ago

Points at his own comment elsewhere: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5795016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5795016 Essentially: surely that depends on your notion of value?