6 ms·

Dear Fellow Rubyists

41 points by mkn 17y ago

jrockway 17y ago
I learned a lot from this article, namely that if you want people to talk about your talks after you give them, add porn. It seems to be more effective than technical content, which just puts the audience to sleep. Here's another example: http://use.perl.org/~Alias/journal/31986 http://use.perl.org/~Alias/journal/31986
- knowtheory 17y ago
  I think you'll note that everyone involved in this discussion would much rather be discussing the content of the presentation, which, so far as i have seen, has not been discussed. So, sure, people are talking about the presentation. They're just not talking about the technical content of the presentation. I don't think that's a winning proposition.
  - jamesbritt 17y ago
    "So, sure, people are talking about the presentation. They're just not talking about the technical content of the presentation." A few times recently I've heard people remark on one or another presentation, but they were captivated by the jokes or visual gimmickry. When I was watching some of those talks, my thought was, you've only got 30 minutes, and you're wasting it with jokes? It's nice to have a talk that's remembered, but it should be for the essential content, not for the fluff (or, in some cases, the fluffer.)
petercooper 17y ago
Dear god, not again. Not a month can go by without another gender debate that goes nowhere and has no resolution at all. I've seen these crop up in every programming community I've monitored over the last ten years. Instead of whining about other people's behavior, perhaps people should do things to tackle the inequalities they perceive (such as the fine Girl Geek Dinners or "do a Amy Hoy" and put out some damn good blog posts and apps and become well known and respected in the community). I see the irony in that I'm whining about someone else's behavior, but I don't want anything to be "fixed" as such.. I just wish these smart, decent people would get on with doing great work instead of losing time on a crazy argument that always goes nowhere.
- thesethings 17y ago
  How do you know that she's not also "doing something?" Actually, she is. She is an active developer, and the co-chair of a back-breakingly large, totally volunteer run conference, Open Source Bridge, taking place in Portland in late June. (OSCON-like in content, I won't too deep about the event here, but I do in other HN posts, feel free to crawl my comments.) I do not know her personally, but we have enough peers in common, that I know she also does "Amy Hoy's" (I like that phrase, btw :D ) and regularly puts out pretty cool tools (I'm pretty sure she's a key contributor to Calagator (Ruby events calendar)) and blog posts. But even if she didn't... I think if you witness something you're not comfortable with, and everybody else is quiet about it, it's actually brave AND valuable to speak up. I know it gets old reading about it on Hacker News, heck, I agree with these gender-posts most of the time, and I never vote them up, just because I wince in fear at the threads that happen. I'm sick of the debate, but even sicker of the reality. Still, I identify with whatever that sensation it is you feel (petercooper) when you see a gender topic on HN. My heart sinks, too. But I still admire the bloggers who take the time write a post, knowing full well they'll get tons of cruel, off-topic comments from strangers (so far she's been called a whore, ideally removed by now), and bite the bullet and write anyway ... [apologies, i lightly edited my last line right before somebody quoted it]
  - petercooper 17y ago
    But I still admire the bloggers who take the time write a post, knowing full well they'll get tons of cruel, off-topic comments on their blog from Digg users, and bite the bullet and write anyway ... I see it more along the lines of unnecessary repetition, like the incessant blog posts about how "Rails sucks" or how "slow" Ruby is. We get the message. If one can't bring something new to the table or at least let a year pass to see how things progress, does it need to be said yet again?
    - thesethings 17y ago
      Hmm. I'm not sure the "Ruby sucks," or "Ruby is slow" is totally accurate analogy. If somebody made something new with Ruby, and then it did something really cool or really bad, I would want to hear about it that developer's experience and opinion with it. The anecdote described in the blog post, whether you agree with it or not, just happened, it was "new."
hugothefrog 17y ago
Wow.. what an incredibly offensive presentation that Matt Aimonetti gave. That he needed to resort to such crass tactics speaks volumes about both him, the audience, and what he thought about the audience. I'm a little disappointed that there isn't a strong tone being taken against this guy; perhaps I'm just missing it? Even the woman bloggers seem to be apologizing for the offense they've taken. Those slides were hugely sexist and misogynistic; the imagery was stereotypical and gratuitous. I wasn't there, so didn't hear any accompanying commentary, but he would have to be an amazing speaker to make those slides appear not objectionable.
- knowtheory 17y ago
  I feel it necessary to speak to defend Matt's character. Having met him, and spoken with him, and conversed w/ him, i genuinely believe that he intended no offense.
  - scott_s 17y ago
    "Intending" no offense really doesn't make it much better. All it means is that instead of being a jerk, you just don't have a concept of what's appropriate, and more importantly, why that might not be appropriate.
    - knowtheory 17y ago
      But that is still different from willful disregard, or malice. Defending Matt on this is a proposition i'm ambivalent on, since i don't condone the content of his presentation (i think the presentation was alienating, and the presentation seems to have predominantly featured pictures of scantily clad women rather than women and men for instance.)
      - ibsulon 17y ago
        Matt Aimonetti apology still has no links. As such, either google has no record or Matt has not apologized. As such, I would consider this willful disregard if he has seen or heard any comments regarding his presentation. [Edit: There was a non-apology, after all. http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-at-gogaruco/#comment-533 http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-... -- Really, his wife saw nothing wrong with this?]
SwellJoe 17y ago
So, this is why Asimov never really included sex or adult language in his novels. Not because he was a prude (he wasn't) or had any moral qualms about such things (he didn't), or because he expected any significant portion of his audience to be prudes or have such qualms (scifi, as a fanbase, is exceedingly forgiving of sex, violence, and language). But, because some percentage of people would use it as an excuse not to think about what he had to say. It's easier to write someone off as not worth listening to, if they say or do something "offensive". So, if you have something you consider important to say, it might behoove you to think about the ways people can write you off as not worth listening to. Since the fellow with the naked ladies in his presentation included the naked ladies in order to get attention, I'm going to assume he felt like he had something important to say. And, since nobody is talking about what he said, and only how he said it, I'm thinking he failed.
- kingsley_20 17y ago
  I definitely remember sex in both, the foundation as well as the robot series. However, I agree with the point of your second paragraph. You may be illustrating your point better than you had planned to- your example of Asimov doesn't quite hold up, but your general point does.
  - SwellJoe 17y ago
    I definitely remember sex in both You have a vivid imagination. The sex scenes are perhaps the mildest of any modern scifi I can think of...and they came in later novels, perhaps after he was thoroughly confident no one took his writing lightly. He also practically murdered the one actually sexually explicit story he wrote in his early career (The Portable Star), by insuring it wasn't published again in any collection during his life. Compare Asimov to any of his contemporaries...Heinlein, Farmer, Dick, etc. Clarke was also a bit more "polite", and I guess, also more inclined toward people taking his work more seriously and thinking more about the serious issues he was addressing. Of course, he also felt that he just wasn't very good at writing female characters or romantic subjects, so he avoided it for the sake of his readers. So, if we're being entirely strict about using Asimov as an example, it also falls apart because he had several reasons for not doing sex very often...not just wanting to be taken seriously.
marcusbooster 17y ago
I saw this presentation when a friend (who's not a programmer) posted a link on Facebook to it. I wouldn't be surprised if non-tech people thought this was a porn site thing.
davidmathers 17y ago
Giles Bowkett wins: http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-at-gogaruco/#comment-555 http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-...
- erlanger 17y ago
  From the comment, You made people uncomfortable by showing them inappropriate pictures of naked people. OMG! Who could have seen that one coming? Except there's nobody naked in the presentation. I had not looked at that presentation until now. There's nothing patently offensive about it. The presenter chose women as the theme of the presentation. A women could choose men. A clown could choose circus animals. Sure, it's tacky, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it tasteless.
- hugothefrog 17y ago
  Thanks for pointing out that specific comment. It wasn't there when I first read that post. The only correction I'd make to his post would be to state that people in nearly all communities (perhaps not the members of the Professional Association of Honest Apologists) are unable to apologize gracefully.
mattetti 17y ago
For those who still care, here is my statement: http://merbist.com/2009/04/28/on-engendering-strong-reactions/ http://merbist.com/2009/04/28/on-engendering-strong-reaction...

41 points by mkn 17y ago

I learned a lot from this article, namely that if you want people to talk about your talks after you give them, add porn. It seems to be more effective than technical content, which just puts the audience to sleep. Here's another example: http://use.perl.org/~Alias/journal/31986 http://use.perl.org/~Alias/journal/31986

knowtheory 17y ago
I think you'll note that everyone involved in this discussion would much rather be discussing the content of the presentation, which, so far as i have seen, has not been discussed. So, sure, people are talking about the presentation. They're just not talking about the technical content of the presentation. I don't think that's a winning proposition.
- jamesbritt 17y ago
  "So, sure, people are talking about the presentation. They're just not talking about the technical content of the presentation." A few times recently I've heard people remark on one or another presentation, but they were captivated by the jokes or visual gimmickry. When I was watching some of those talks, my thought was, you've only got 30 minutes, and you're wasting it with jokes? It's nice to have a talk that's remembered, but it should be for the essential content, not for the fluff (or, in some cases, the fluffer.)

petercooper 17y ago

Dear god, not again. Not a month can go by without another gender debate that goes nowhere and has no resolution at all. I've seen these crop up in every programming community I've monitored over the last ten years. Instead of whining about other people's behavior, perhaps people should do things to tackle the inequalities they perceive (such as the fine Girl Geek Dinners or "do a Amy Hoy" and put out some damn good blog posts and apps and become well known and respected in the community). I see the irony in that I'm whining about someone else's behavior, but I don't want anything to be "fixed" as such.. I just wish these smart, decent people would get on with doing great work instead of losing time on a crazy argument that always goes nowhere.

thesethings 17y ago
How do you know that she's not also "doing something?" Actually, she is. She is an active developer, and the co-chair of a back-breakingly large, totally volunteer run conference, Open Source Bridge, taking place in Portland in late June. (OSCON-like in content, I won't too deep about the event here, but I do in other HN posts, feel free to crawl my comments.) I do not know her personally, but we have enough peers in common, that I know she also does "Amy Hoy's" (I like that phrase, btw :D ) and regularly puts out pretty cool tools (I'm pretty sure she's a key contributor to Calagator (Ruby events calendar)) and blog posts. But even if she didn't... I think if you witness something you're not comfortable with, and everybody else is quiet about it, it's actually brave AND valuable to speak up. I know it gets old reading about it on Hacker News, heck, I agree with these gender-posts most of the time, and I never vote them up, just because I wince in fear at the threads that happen. I'm sick of the debate, but even sicker of the reality. Still, I identify with whatever that sensation it is you feel (petercooper) when you see a gender topic on HN. My heart sinks, too. But I still admire the bloggers who take the time write a post, knowing full well they'll get tons of cruel, off-topic comments from strangers (so far she's been called a whore, ideally removed by now), and bite the bullet and write anyway ... [apologies, i lightly edited my last line right before somebody quoted it]
- petercooper 17y ago
  But I still admire the bloggers who take the time write a post, knowing full well they'll get tons of cruel, off-topic comments on their blog from Digg users, and bite the bullet and write anyway ... I see it more along the lines of unnecessary repetition, like the incessant blog posts about how "Rails sucks" or how "slow" Ruby is. We get the message. If one can't bring something new to the table or at least let a year pass to see how things progress, does it need to be said yet again?
  - thesethings 17y ago
    Hmm. I'm not sure the "Ruby sucks," or "Ruby is slow" is totally accurate analogy. If somebody made something new with Ruby, and then it did something really cool or really bad, I would want to hear about it that developer's experience and opinion with it. The anecdote described in the blog post, whether you agree with it or not, just happened, it was "new."

hugothefrog 17y ago

Wow.. what an incredibly offensive presentation that Matt Aimonetti gave. That he needed to resort to such crass tactics speaks volumes about both him, the audience, and what he thought about the audience. I'm a little disappointed that there isn't a strong tone being taken against this guy; perhaps I'm just missing it? Even the woman bloggers seem to be apologizing for the offense they've taken. Those slides were hugely sexist and misogynistic; the imagery was stereotypical and gratuitous. I wasn't there, so didn't hear any accompanying commentary, but he would have to be an amazing speaker to make those slides appear not objectionable.

knowtheory 17y ago
I feel it necessary to speak to defend Matt's character. Having met him, and spoken with him, and conversed w/ him, i genuinely believe that he intended no offense.
- scott_s 17y ago
  "Intending" no offense really doesn't make it much better. All it means is that instead of being a jerk, you just don't have a concept of what's appropriate, and more importantly, why that might not be appropriate.
  - knowtheory 17y ago
    But that is still different from willful disregard, or malice. Defending Matt on this is a proposition i'm ambivalent on, since i don't condone the content of his presentation (i think the presentation was alienating, and the presentation seems to have predominantly featured pictures of scantily clad women rather than women and men for instance.)
    - ibsulon 17y ago
      Matt Aimonetti apology still has no links. As such, either google has no record or Matt has not apologized. As such, I would consider this willful disregard if he has seen or heard any comments regarding his presentation. [Edit: There was a non-apology, after all. http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-at-gogaruco/#comment-533 http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-... -- Really, his wife saw nothing wrong with this?]

SwellJoe 17y ago

So, this is why Asimov never really included sex or adult language in his novels. Not because he was a prude (he wasn't) or had any moral qualms about such things (he didn't), or because he expected any significant portion of his audience to be prudes or have such qualms (scifi, as a fanbase, is exceedingly forgiving of sex, violence, and language). But, because some percentage of people would use it as an excuse not to think about what he had to say. It's easier to write someone off as not worth listening to, if they say or do something "offensive". So, if you have something you consider important to say, it might behoove you to think about the ways people can write you off as not worth listening to. Since the fellow with the naked ladies in his presentation included the naked ladies in order to get attention, I'm going to assume he felt like he had something important to say. And, since nobody is talking about what he said, and only how he said it, I'm thinking he failed.

kingsley_20 17y ago
I definitely remember sex in both, the foundation as well as the robot series. However, I agree with the point of your second paragraph. You may be illustrating your point better than you had planned to- your example of Asimov doesn't quite hold up, but your general point does.
- SwellJoe 17y ago
  I definitely remember sex in both You have a vivid imagination. The sex scenes are perhaps the mildest of any modern scifi I can think of...and they came in later novels, perhaps after he was thoroughly confident no one took his writing lightly. He also practically murdered the one actually sexually explicit story he wrote in his early career (The Portable Star), by insuring it wasn't published again in any collection during his life. Compare Asimov to any of his contemporaries...Heinlein, Farmer, Dick, etc. Clarke was also a bit more "polite", and I guess, also more inclined toward people taking his work more seriously and thinking more about the serious issues he was addressing. Of course, he also felt that he just wasn't very good at writing female characters or romantic subjects, so he avoided it for the sake of his readers. So, if we're being entirely strict about using Asimov as an example, it also falls apart because he had several reasons for not doing sex very often...not just wanting to be taken seriously.

marcusbooster 17y ago

I saw this presentation when a friend (who's not a programmer) posted a link on Facebook to it. I wouldn't be surprised if non-tech people thought this was a porn site thing.

davidmathers 17y ago

Giles Bowkett wins: http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-at-gogaruco/#comment-555 http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-...

erlanger 17y ago
From the comment, You made people uncomfortable by showing them inappropriate pictures of naked people. OMG! Who could have seen that one coming? Except there's nobody naked in the presentation. I had not looked at that presentation until now. There's nothing patently offensive about it. The presenter chose women as the theme of the presentation. A women could choose men. A clown could choose circus animals. Sure, it's tacky, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it tasteless.
hugothefrog 17y ago
Thanks for pointing out that specific comment. It wasn't there when I first read that post. The only correction I'd make to his post would be to state that people in nearly all communities (perhaps not the members of the Professional Association of Honest Apologists) are unable to apologize gracefully.

mattetti 17y ago

For those who still care, here is my statement: http://merbist.com/2009/04/28/on-engendering-strong-reactions/ http://merbist.com/2009/04/28/on-engendering-strong-reaction...