6 ms·

I run a bootstrapped company and we hire the cheapest engineers we can find. I interview for competence in the one thing they understand, and then just how fas

I run a bootstrapped company and we hire the cheapest engineers we can find. I interview for competence in the one thing they understand, and then just how fast they learn. I cannot overstate the number of people out there that are incredibly smart, but can't describe basic information like how the HTTP protocol works. It is completely baffling. These people can be explained how the protocol works in 10 minutes, and spend 8 hours at home looking at the Chrome web inspector, and completely grock the protocol. I find myself a seed planter. These people are smart enough to figure it out, but for some reason they don't do it without a 10 minute verbal overview. My advice to any to young person is to judge the job by the quality of the mentor. Smart people feel ecstasy when learning new things, and if you have anxiety about your job, then you are likely in the wrong position.

RockyMcNuts 13y ago
Most important thing in your first job is your boss. You are going to learn a massive amount, not just the job skills, but how to work in a group/company. The distance is massive between learning the right things from someone who does things in a first class way, and the wrong things from someone mediocre or worse. Second is the company. You join the right company, and it's a solid growing company, or a rocket ship, you have lots of opportunity to learn and grow. Conversely, if it's a truly awful company known for unethical practices or engineering nightmares, it can end up haunting you, both in teaching you the wrong things and a possible red flag on your resume if you stay too long.
- jcampbell1 13y ago
  In a flat organization, your boss is going to be irrelevant. I would gauge a company by whether the interviewers teach or belittle. I personally find belittling okay, and can learn in that environment. "fuck you, if you are such an expert, then you can explain it to me. If you can't explain it, then you are probably full of shit." I have no problem saying that, but most people won't/shouldn't. I get high from learning no matter whether the people are assholes or teachers. Most people need good mentors that are not managers. Any organization where managers have time to teach are too hierarchical.
  - franciscoprat 13y ago
    A manager can be a mentor regardless of the type of organization. What is important if you want to improve a particular skill set is that the people that are managing you truly understand what it takes to do your job well and can provide feedback on what you are not doing well from a "do-ers" perspective - more of an apprenticeship model. I have personally found that mentors are great for career advice and resolving questions, but never have enough "skin in the game" to invest their time in my development.
    - jcampbell1 13y ago
      I used the word mentor incorrectly. What you want is peer teachers, not mentors. Mentors by the corporate definition are largely useless. You contact them 1-2 per month at best, which is pointless. What you want is a person that observes your code, behavior, interactions, demeanor, etc., and tells you how to do better. It is impossible to have perfect introspection. You need to find a guide more than the corporate definition of "mentor". People need apprentice masters more than mentors, I wish I had used a better term.
      - RockyMcNuts 13y ago
        that's pretty much what I meant... if you've just graduated that person is not really your 'peer', maybe not your 'boss' either ... a lot of times real world roles and relationships don't line up with org charts.
  - RockyMcNuts 13y ago
    interesting... After about 3 years I agree. But a first job, someone's got to show you the ropes and get you up to speed with processes, testing, coding standards, help you get unstuck from time to time. I guess by boss I don't necessarily mean team manager, but whoever that is, mentor, direct senior. If nobody has that role, you'd better be pretty self-directed. 'Flat' better not be a synonym for free-for-all with no process, standards, code review, or you might learn some bad habits if you're not a natural (and even then.)
- dchichkov 13y ago
  Most important thing in your first job is that the team is well balanced. And that you are collaborating with people who are amazing, rich and had history of doing great things before. [As to your boss, of course having a nightmarish boss fresh from some traditional caste system could be disastrous and can end up haunting you. But that's an outlier case.]
dustingetz 13y ago
i totally understand and respect your position and that's definitely a strategy that can work. The other end of the spectrum is, you could contract someone like Tony Morris[1] at $250 an hour for 20 hours a week, and he will build your product faster than a team of untrained engineers, or more likely, build a product that untrained engineers aren't capable of building, with a defect rate close to zero. Not every strategy is right for every business, but generally, the harder the technical challenges, the more cost effective it is to pay for a superstar. [1] http://tmorris.net/posts.html http://tmorris.net/posts.html
- oblique63 13y ago
  Yeah, but I think the over-arching idea that the OP was getting at, was "what if we can breed these 'superstars'?" That would certainly seem feasible if you interview for personality traits, interests and learning skills, more than actual/concrete knowledge and working skills. And of course, this would be a lot more cost-effective as well. In that case, I would say that the key would lie in paying more attention to human psychology/intelligence research than to tech blogs/circles to find out more about 'superstars'.
  - mbillie1 13y ago
    > That would certainly seem feasible if you interview for personality traits, interests and learning skills, more than actual/concrete knowledge and working skills. That's a good chunk of the way we (ThoughtWorks) interview, along with general smarts and good company fit. It's easier to teach a very smart person [language x, skillset y] than it is to teach a random person who knows [language x, skillset y] how to be very smart.
  - btilly 13y ago
    To a point that is possible. However there are key lessons that don't really sink in until after you have made certain mistakes and have seen the consequences. For instance I understood the value of forcing variable declarations, and of having multiple layers of safeguards after a typo in a variable name caused me to take down Bloomberg's ftp server about 15 years ago. Judging from ability and personality, it was clear at that point that I had potential. And I received some excellent mentoring. But potential and mentoring do not ensure a smooth path to success.
rhizome 13y ago
Just out of curiosity, do you phrase the question, "how does the HTTP protocol work?"

RockyMcNuts 13y ago

Most important thing in your first job is your boss. You are going to learn a massive amount, not just the job skills, but how to work in a group/company. The distance is massive between learning the right things from someone who does things in a first class way, and the wrong things from someone mediocre or worse. Second is the company. You join the right company, and it's a solid growing company, or a rocket ship, you have lots of opportunity to learn and grow. Conversely, if it's a truly awful company known for unethical practices or engineering nightmares, it can end up haunting you, both in teaching you the wrong things and a possible red flag on your resume if you stay too long.

jcampbell1 13y ago
In a flat organization, your boss is going to be irrelevant. I would gauge a company by whether the interviewers teach or belittle. I personally find belittling okay, and can learn in that environment. "fuck you, if you are such an expert, then you can explain it to me. If you can't explain it, then you are probably full of shit." I have no problem saying that, but most people won't/shouldn't. I get high from learning no matter whether the people are assholes or teachers. Most people need good mentors that are not managers. Any organization where managers have time to teach are too hierarchical.
- franciscoprat 13y ago
  A manager can be a mentor regardless of the type of organization. What is important if you want to improve a particular skill set is that the people that are managing you truly understand what it takes to do your job well and can provide feedback on what you are not doing well from a "do-ers" perspective - more of an apprenticeship model. I have personally found that mentors are great for career advice and resolving questions, but never have enough "skin in the game" to invest their time in my development.
  - jcampbell1 13y ago
    I used the word mentor incorrectly. What you want is peer teachers, not mentors. Mentors by the corporate definition are largely useless. You contact them 1-2 per month at best, which is pointless. What you want is a person that observes your code, behavior, interactions, demeanor, etc., and tells you how to do better. It is impossible to have perfect introspection. You need to find a guide more than the corporate definition of "mentor". People need apprentice masters more than mentors, I wish I had used a better term.
    - RockyMcNuts 13y ago
      that's pretty much what I meant... if you've just graduated that person is not really your 'peer', maybe not your 'boss' either ... a lot of times real world roles and relationships don't line up with org charts.
- RockyMcNuts 13y ago
  interesting... After about 3 years I agree. But a first job, someone's got to show you the ropes and get you up to speed with processes, testing, coding standards, help you get unstuck from time to time. I guess by boss I don't necessarily mean team manager, but whoever that is, mentor, direct senior. If nobody has that role, you'd better be pretty self-directed. 'Flat' better not be a synonym for free-for-all with no process, standards, code review, or you might learn some bad habits if you're not a natural (and even then.)
dchichkov 13y ago
Most important thing in your first job is that the team is well balanced. And that you are collaborating with people who are amazing, rich and had history of doing great things before. [As to your boss, of course having a nightmarish boss fresh from some traditional caste system could be disastrous and can end up haunting you. But that's an outlier case.]

dustingetz 13y ago

i totally understand and respect your position and that's definitely a strategy that can work. The other end of the spectrum is, you could contract someone like Tony Morris[1] at $250 an hour for 20 hours a week, and he will build your product faster than a team of untrained engineers, or more likely, build a product that untrained engineers aren't capable of building, with a defect rate close to zero. Not every strategy is right for every business, but generally, the harder the technical challenges, the more cost effective it is to pay for a superstar. [1] http://tmorris.net/posts.html http://tmorris.net/posts.html

oblique63 13y ago
Yeah, but I think the over-arching idea that the OP was getting at, was "what if we can breed these 'superstars'?" That would certainly seem feasible if you interview for personality traits, interests and learning skills, more than actual/concrete knowledge and working skills. And of course, this would be a lot more cost-effective as well. In that case, I would say that the key would lie in paying more attention to human psychology/intelligence research than to tech blogs/circles to find out more about 'superstars'.
- mbillie1 13y ago
  > That would certainly seem feasible if you interview for personality traits, interests and learning skills, more than actual/concrete knowledge and working skills. That's a good chunk of the way we (ThoughtWorks) interview, along with general smarts and good company fit. It's easier to teach a very smart person [language x, skillset y] than it is to teach a random person who knows [language x, skillset y] how to be very smart.
- btilly 13y ago
  To a point that is possible. However there are key lessons that don't really sink in until after you have made certain mistakes and have seen the consequences. For instance I understood the value of forcing variable declarations, and of having multiple layers of safeguards after a typo in a variable name caused me to take down Bloomberg's ftp server about 15 years ago. Judging from ability and personality, it was clear at that point that I had potential. And I received some excellent mentoring. But potential and mentoring do not ensure a smooth path to success.

rhizome 13y ago

Just out of curiosity, do you phrase the question, "how does the HTTP protocol work?"