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We far too often end up with billionaires using their money to fund an art museum or ballet for billionaires in the name of charity You seem to imply that ther

We far too often end up with billionaires using their money to fund an art museum or ballet for billionaires in the name of charity You seem to imply that there's something wrong with funding art museums or ballet... The world needs beauty in it, and if people choose to support the arts in a way from which we all benefit, that's great.

sharkweek 13y ago
I completely agree that we need beauty -- I love the concept of funding the arts, but there have to be priorities and we should not rely on the rich to make decisions like this in the name of charity. I quoted it lower in the thread, but I LOVE the poem by Gil Scott-Heron "Whitey on the moon" -- "A rat done bit my sister Nell, with Whitey on the moon"
- MartinCron 13y ago
  A civilized society doesn't rely on the generosity of philanthropists in order to take care of the most vulnerable among us. We all pay taxes to keep the rats off sister Nell. How anyone (including the super-wealthy) choose to prioritize how they spend and give away their money, it absolutely is their choice. I personally think Bill Gates has done a better job than almost anyone.
  - natrius 13y ago
    "A civilized society doesn't rely on the generosity of philanthropists in order to take care of the most vulnerable among us." I don't understand this sort of logic. One of the hallmarks of civilization is people doing the right thing even when they aren't forced to. People marvel at the fact that you can lose your wallet in Japan and get it back without anything missing. Yet you're saying that using force to provide for the needy is somehow more civilized than people doing it voluntarily? In a civilized society, we'd be able to solve our social problems without forcing people to do it. I'm not sure how we get there, but that's the society I'd rather live in.
    - MartinCron 13y ago
      I would like the kind of society that doesn't need to use force (legitimized by democratically elected representatives, checks and balances, and the rule of law) to take care of the most vulnerable, but I have yet to see any precedent of that. You mention Japan, they have a very pervasive government social safety net. Places without effective governments? Those are places where people do routinely die of hunger and treatable disease.
      - zurn 13y ago
        From what I hear Japan doesn't have a good social safety net. See eg. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/world/asia/08japan.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/world/asia/08japan.html?pa... I would be happy to be wrong and the situation might have improved very recently?
        MartinCron 13y ago
        That's an interesting article about how Japan hadn't yet extended their safety net (which includes things like universal health care) to the emerging edge case of mass layoffs, something that just didn't happen in their culture before.
        zurn 13y ago
        "the number of nonregular workers took off after an easing of labor laws in 1999" .. "To receive unemployment insurance, for instance, workers must have held the same job for at least a year, effectively excluding most temporary workers" .. "Today, 34.5 percent of Japan’s 55.3 million workers are nonregular employees" Sounds like a third of the workforce is at risk of homelessness any time their temp runs out and this has been developing for ~ 15 years.
yitchelle 13y ago
"The world needs beauty in it, and if people choose to support the arts in a way from which we all benefit, that's great." Try to explain why the world needs beauty to the folks of the slums of Mumbai and how this beauty will benefit them. I would imagine that the only beauty that they could find is a hope that their children will get out of the slums and live a more fortunate life than there are now. I always find it strange that to raise money for charity, sometimes an event (ball, art auction, concert etc) is needed to generate the donations. Why not just short cut the event and just collect the donations?
- vacri 13y ago
  Why not just short cut the event and just collect the donations? Because events punctuate people's calendars and bring people who want the same thing together and gives them a chance to socialise and network. I find it weird that you start out complaining that the poor don't have enough joy in their life, then turn around and complain that joy shouldn't be used as a mechanism to help them.
- MartinCron 13y ago
  Art is a pervasive part of all human cultures. To imply that people in the slums of Mumbai somehow can't appreciate beauty is to rob them of their humanity. There's no reason why you can't support both hunger and arts charities.
mturmon 13y ago
Whether art or disease prevention, applying resources over time in a serious and committed way is probably going to be a big help. The BMGF seems to be doing just that. It's not just about the money. It's about applying it thoughtfully over a period of time.
mynameishere 13y ago
The world needs beauty Platitudes don't make for a very good argument. How about this: "What if all the aristocrats who sponsored Mozart had pissed it away so that people in Bombay had cleaner latrines?" Exactly. Total waste.

sharkweek 13y ago

I completely agree that we need beauty -- I love the concept of funding the arts, but there have to be priorities and we should not rely on the rich to make decisions like this in the name of charity. I quoted it lower in the thread, but I LOVE the poem by Gil Scott-Heron "Whitey on the moon" -- "A rat done bit my sister Nell, with Whitey on the moon"

MartinCron 13y ago
A civilized society doesn't rely on the generosity of philanthropists in order to take care of the most vulnerable among us. We all pay taxes to keep the rats off sister Nell. How anyone (including the super-wealthy) choose to prioritize how they spend and give away their money, it absolutely is their choice. I personally think Bill Gates has done a better job than almost anyone.
- natrius 13y ago
  "A civilized society doesn't rely on the generosity of philanthropists in order to take care of the most vulnerable among us." I don't understand this sort of logic. One of the hallmarks of civilization is people doing the right thing even when they aren't forced to. People marvel at the fact that you can lose your wallet in Japan and get it back without anything missing. Yet you're saying that using force to provide for the needy is somehow more civilized than people doing it voluntarily? In a civilized society, we'd be able to solve our social problems without forcing people to do it. I'm not sure how we get there, but that's the society I'd rather live in.
  - MartinCron 13y ago
    I would like the kind of society that doesn't need to use force (legitimized by democratically elected representatives, checks and balances, and the rule of law) to take care of the most vulnerable, but I have yet to see any precedent of that. You mention Japan, they have a very pervasive government social safety net. Places without effective governments? Those are places where people do routinely die of hunger and treatable disease.
    - zurn 13y ago
      From what I hear Japan doesn't have a good social safety net. See eg. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/world/asia/08japan.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/world/asia/08japan.html?pa... I would be happy to be wrong and the situation might have improved very recently?
      - MartinCron 13y ago
        That's an interesting article about how Japan hadn't yet extended their safety net (which includes things like universal health care) to the emerging edge case of mass layoffs, something that just didn't happen in their culture before.
        zurn 13y ago
        "the number of nonregular workers took off after an easing of labor laws in 1999" .. "To receive unemployment insurance, for instance, workers must have held the same job for at least a year, effectively excluding most temporary workers" .. "Today, 34.5 percent of Japan’s 55.3 million workers are nonregular employees" Sounds like a third of the workforce is at risk of homelessness any time their temp runs out and this has been developing for ~ 15 years.

yitchelle 13y ago

"The world needs beauty in it, and if people choose to support the arts in a way from which we all benefit, that's great." Try to explain why the world needs beauty to the folks of the slums of Mumbai and how this beauty will benefit them. I would imagine that the only beauty that they could find is a hope that their children will get out of the slums and live a more fortunate life than there are now. I always find it strange that to raise money for charity, sometimes an event (ball, art auction, concert etc) is needed to generate the donations. Why not just short cut the event and just collect the donations?

vacri 13y ago
Why not just short cut the event and just collect the donations? Because events punctuate people's calendars and bring people who want the same thing together and gives them a chance to socialise and network. I find it weird that you start out complaining that the poor don't have enough joy in their life, then turn around and complain that joy shouldn't be used as a mechanism to help them.
MartinCron 13y ago
Art is a pervasive part of all human cultures. To imply that people in the slums of Mumbai somehow can't appreciate beauty is to rob them of their humanity. There's no reason why you can't support both hunger and arts charities.

mturmon 13y ago

Whether art or disease prevention, applying resources over time in a serious and committed way is probably going to be a big help. The BMGF seems to be doing just that. It's not just about the money. It's about applying it thoughtfully over a period of time.

mynameishere 13y ago

The world needs beauty Platitudes don't make for a very good argument. How about this: "What if all the aristocrats who sponsored Mozart had pissed it away so that people in Bombay had cleaner latrines?" Exactly. Total waste.