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Are you denying men have ever benefited from privilege? - Owning possessions - Owning land - Owning people - Running a business - Being owned by family -

Are you denying men have ever benefited from privilege? - Owning possessions - Owning land - Owning people - Running a business - Being owned by family - Being owned by spouse - Being actively selected against - Being discriminated against, in general - Going to school - Going to university - Housekeeping - Working - Raising children - Being pregnant / giving birth / after - Voting I'm sure others could think of more.

sbjustin 13y ago
I don't think he's suggesting that these things have not been in the favor of men in the past. He's saying that men are just not handed out things because they're men. My question to you is why should the men of today be penalized for actions of men in the past?
- wpietri 13y ago
  Because they are benefiting from those past actions. And note that a penalty that offsets an unearned benefit is, from some angles, no penalty at all. The expectation that everything should be fair from my perspective is something that I have because I'm a straight, white, upper-middle-class male. I get to assume that it's all about me, because it so often is. People from less privileged backgrounds don't expect that nearly as much.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    Because they are benefiting from those past actions. Which brings us to the whole "sins of thy father" question.
    - wpietri 13y ago
      Does it? I think that's a different question. Consider European genocide of Native Americans. Suppose they all had been wiped out. Or consider German genocide of Jews, with the same hypothetical. I think the "sins of thy father" question is: Should the descendants of the criminals be punished for the crimes of their ancestors? My answer to this is "no". And I think bringing it up in this context mainly confuses things. I think the question of privilege is about present-day social inequities. If the question is, "Should we work to make society fair to everybody, no matter their race, gender, sexual orientation, or other irrelevant factor?" There, my answer is a firm "yes". Will that involve people with unearned privilege giving up that privilege? Sure. But that's not a punishment for being among one of the privileged groups, no matter how much it feels like it.
elchief 13y ago
Do you think white women historically had it harder than black males?
- roboticowl 13y ago
  http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Oppression_Olympics http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Oppression_Olympics
sliverstorm 13y ago
You're trying to put words in my mouth. My point is, nobody gave men possessions, or land, or people, or a business for virtue of them being men. Maybe it was easier for a man to own land or run a business, but he still had to work for them. Whereas our metaphorical escalator gives good things to its riders, whether they do anything or not. So, mostly point being, I think the escalator is a flawed analogy.
- wpietri 13y ago
  I frequently get good things because I'm a man. For example, I find it much easier to get people to listen to me than do equally competent female colleagues. If you'd like to see more examples, Google "male privilege checklist". E.g.: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ But if you'd prefer a different analogy, try this one from sci-fi writer John Scalzi: "Straight White Male: The Lowest difficulty Setting": http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...
- munificent 13y ago
  > Whereas our metaphorical escalator gives good things to its riders, whether they do anything or not. That's not what the author says: > There are also some men who are just standing on the escalator, simply letting the luck of the draw propel them up. Most of these men won’t make it to the room.

sbjustin 13y ago

I don't think he's suggesting that these things have not been in the favor of men in the past. He's saying that men are just not handed out things because they're men. My question to you is why should the men of today be penalized for actions of men in the past?

wpietri 13y ago
Because they are benefiting from those past actions. And note that a penalty that offsets an unearned benefit is, from some angles, no penalty at all. The expectation that everything should be fair from my perspective is something that I have because I'm a straight, white, upper-middle-class male. I get to assume that it's all about me, because it so often is. People from less privileged backgrounds don't expect that nearly as much.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Because they are benefiting from those past actions. Which brings us to the whole "sins of thy father" question.
  - wpietri 13y ago
    Does it? I think that's a different question. Consider European genocide of Native Americans. Suppose they all had been wiped out. Or consider German genocide of Jews, with the same hypothetical. I think the "sins of thy father" question is: Should the descendants of the criminals be punished for the crimes of their ancestors? My answer to this is "no". And I think bringing it up in this context mainly confuses things. I think the question of privilege is about present-day social inequities. If the question is, "Should we work to make society fair to everybody, no matter their race, gender, sexual orientation, or other irrelevant factor?" There, my answer is a firm "yes". Will that involve people with unearned privilege giving up that privilege? Sure. But that's not a punishment for being among one of the privileged groups, no matter how much it feels like it.

elchief 13y ago

Do you think white women historically had it harder than black males?

roboticowl 13y ago
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Oppression_Olympics http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Oppression_Olympics

sliverstorm 13y ago

You're trying to put words in my mouth. My point is, nobody gave men possessions, or land, or people, or a business for virtue of them being men. Maybe it was easier for a man to own land or run a business, but he still had to work for them. Whereas our metaphorical escalator gives good things to its riders, whether they do anything or not. So, mostly point being, I think the escalator is a flawed analogy.

wpietri 13y ago
I frequently get good things because I'm a man. For example, I find it much easier to get people to listen to me than do equally competent female colleagues. If you'd like to see more examples, Google "male privilege checklist". E.g.: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ But if you'd prefer a different analogy, try this one from sci-fi writer John Scalzi: "Straight White Male: The Lowest difficulty Setting": http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...
munificent 13y ago
> Whereas our metaphorical escalator gives good things to its riders, whether they do anything or not. That's not what the author says: > There are also some men who are just standing on the escalator, simply letting the luck of the draw propel them up. Most of these men won’t make it to the room.