5 ms·

I have read extensively on this topic over the last few months as I'm about to start an MS CS program. Without fail, everything I've read has a subtle undercurr

by wilfra 13y ago

I have read extensively on this topic over the last few months as I'm about to start an MS CS program. Without fail, everything I've read has a subtle undercurrent of disdain for people who don't have a BS CS who want to get an MS CS. While I understand, respect and even agree with the reason why - the fact remains that I studied Communication, Beer and Skirts for my undergrad degree, didn't start programming until two years ago when I was 30 and now more than anything in the World want to be a software engineer. So for somebody like me - the absolute lowest form of life in software engineering - is spending two years doing a coursework only MS CS (first year is a fast paced BS CS) a waste of my time and money?

enraged_camel 13y ago
I asked a related question here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5787351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5787351
- josephhardin 13y ago
  I'd say if you can do it in two years, including deficiency courses, and without publishing, you're probably not getting your moneys worth and yes it will be looked down upon. Three years(take a lot of courses) and/or a publication or two will look much better. Of course, if you think you can do extra curricular activities to create a portfolio(github projects, contributing to open source, create a product), then it might not matter how well the MS is looked upon, if you show you have a track record of delivering.
  - shubb 13y ago
    This bar sounds really very high. I read things like this a lot, but it doesn't match up with what I see. No employer has ever asked me for a github address, or a list of open source commits. I put github on my CV via a goo.gl url last time, and counted very few visits. Yet they invited me for interview. HR filter by qualifications, and hiring managers filter before phone screen on what you claim in your CV. Then they assess at the interview whether you were lieing. If you were genuinely famous in the OS community, or had spent a year full time making an amazing product they could see, I think things would be different. For most software engineers, 80% of our work is for our employer. I've made some awesome stuff for other people. It's not on github. My boss wouldn't like that. Is the above really a good recommendation? I'd say at least the MS would get him through the HR filter?
    - tracker1 13y ago
      I have no formal education beyond H.S. and simply don't list education on my resume... At this point I have about 18 years of experience in Software Development, so take it with a grain of salt. For the most part, education has been a poor indicator of how well a given developer works. I've have seen quite a few interviews where people will look at your github contributions (I have very little).
      - shubb 13y ago
        Yes, I didn't mean to say employers should filter by qualification. For the first 3 years of your career, they just do. Then after that, HR appear to filter by previous job title, hoping to see career progression and a similar title previously. I guess the people at a large company that reduce 200 resumes down to 20, before the hiring mangers sees them, do not understand Ruby. They understand that they must be able to quantify why they rejected an applicant in case of a lawsuit. Hence the frustrating rigidness.
    - josephhardin 13y ago
      The M.S. does, but as stories like this become more common, non-namebrand MS programs will start to lose some luster. Being able to point to a publication, or a project you run, or something genuinely useful to at least someone, goes a long way to distinguish you from the people who went to school, but never programmed in their free time, and do it purely as a job. Passion as a buzzword is very overrated in this community, but at least a little bit of it is required to make you stand out. I'd imagine this goes doubly so for the startup world.
mdasen 13y ago
No. There's a certain snobbery about people who had their act together. Not everyone knew what they wanted to do as an undergrad. You might have more aptitude than people with a BS CS. Pick a program that doesn't treat you as a cash-cow: one where you can take the same courses as undergraduates and PhD students. Then ignore nay-sayers. If it's a two-year program, you can likely get enough courses in to learn something serious. I have less respect for one-year BS/MS masters programs simply because you won't be taking that much. In two years, you could take 12-16 courses and maybe do some research in the second year. When it comes to university credentials, people like to "lock-in" their value. If you went to Harvard, no matter how much of a failure you turn out to be, you went to Harvard and people should respect you. So, if I have a BSCS, there's a great temptation to say, "no, you can't go back in time and get to the same level as me. Even if I'm incompetent at my job, employers should devalue you no matter how good you are because you're that 'absolute lowest form of life in software engineering'". But we shouldn't think that way. You're trying to better yourself. Kudos! To be realistic, you might come out of the program not on-par with the type of student that would be capable of applying to top PhD programs, depending on how rigorous your courses are. Two years can be a short time, especially if you're starting with intro to programming. However, if it's a good program, I think you can come out well among those looking for software engineering jobs.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
205guy 13y ago
As I replied to enraged_camel's thread (linked in his/her comment), what you want is essentially a BS in CS. What's wrong with having multiple BS degrees? How does a BS in one field prepare you for an MS in another? The real issue is that the BS degree covers (roughly) 2 years of general study and 2 years in a major. Anyone that has already done the general study part just wants to do the 2 years part in another field. I think it is a failure of the academic system (in the US) to not break down the degrees correctly and to call those 2 years in another field an MS--should be a 2nd BS. I will note that in Europe, a lot of the general study that US universities do in the first 2 years of a BS are done in the last two years of high school, for example the French baccalaureat (bac).
- wilfra 13y ago
  I agree what I want is a BS in CS. However getting a second undergrad degree is extremely uncommon in the US. Many schools don't even allow it.
  - terenceong 13y ago
    actually, that's not true. i was always under the same impression as you that schools in US don't seem to encourage or even allow second undergrad degrees, having read somewhere before that a first undergrad degree disqualifies you from applying for a second. however, due to a series of unfortunate events, i have discovered that it is not true at all. source = me. i'm currently admitted back to my alma mater for a second degree in CSC and will be returning in fall this year.
- glesica 13y ago
  Many schools, at least in the US, frown upon students earning a second BS/BA. I tried and was basically told by an admissions counselor that I probably wouldn't be accepted. I was welcome to apply for a master's degree and take any undergraduate courses I needed once I had been provisionally accepted into that program, however. But I wouldn't have earned a BS. I suspect that this might have to do with financial aid rules, but I'm really not sure. I ended up taking some post-bac courses at the university I'd gone to for my BA then going directly into an MS program.
bokglobule 13y ago
I have a BS in CS, Math and Stat, and a MS in CS. I've been a developer for a long time and worked with a lot of other developers. The biggest determinant IMHO to becoming a good, competent developer is the desire to become an even better developer from reading, experimentation on your own time, and an open mind. If you have that kind of passion for software development, you'll do fine, regardless of your original degree (or lack thereof). Having said that, I'm skeptical of the value of a MS in CS without a BS in CS. In my MS program, the assumption was that you had the basics - algorithms, data structures, language theory, basic hardware design & logic, compiler design. You can certainly gain that knowledge with enough reading on your own, or taking some courses at a local community college to get the basics.
- thornkin 13y ago
  This is what I did. I have a BS in Politics and a MS in CS. Before taking the MS degree, I read a lot of the books one would read for a BS in CS and did a lot of programming. This prepared me well. I met others in the program who didn't and it showed. Taking Masters level courses without background will get you lost really fast.
thirdstation 13y ago
I have a MS in CS but, before enrolling in a graduate program I took 30 credits of undergraduate CS courses at a local university as part of a certificate program. My BA in Journalism did not really prepare me for graduate-level CS work. If this option is available to you then I'd heartily recommend it.
porter 13y ago
I went back at 27 and did post-bac courses to earn the equivalent of a minor in CS. I also taught myself python/django, js/css, basic database theory, and how to use heroku. Now I have a web app with paying customers. There might be other ways to get to where you want to go, without paying a lot of money out of pocket. It all depends on your goals. I too considered those MS programs for non CS undergrads. Because I ultimately knew I wanted an entrepreneurial career, I went more the DIY/non-credential route. My advice - decide what you want to do after you graduate, then work backwards to determine alternative paths. I'm not saying don't go back to school, but I am saying you have a lot of options, which is a great thing.
- wilfra 13y ago
  Really, really helpful, thanks! Would you mind if I email you a few follow up questions?
  - porter 13y ago
    Sure
- triplesec 13y ago
  great advice!
Nimi 13y ago
"a waste of my time and money?" No, definitely not a waste, but I'm not sure it's an optimal use of those resources. You can try to simply do the minimum to "get your foot in the door" of software development jobs, then take it from there. That minimum is probably taking mostly programming-oriented courses, and asking your programmer friends what else can you study to make you a more appealing candidate. (Not sure I'm qualified to give that advice, but feel free to contact me about that if you want)
mc-lovin 13y ago
Having an MS on your resume is worth it for itself, let alone all the extra knowledge you can get. So the real questions is: can you handle the coursework? Only you can answer that. If you can pass the degree, and it is from a decent school, I don't see how it could fail to be worth it.

by wilfra 13y ago

enraged_camel 13y ago

I asked a related question here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5787351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5787351

josephhardin 13y ago
I'd say if you can do it in two years, including deficiency courses, and without publishing, you're probably not getting your moneys worth and yes it will be looked down upon. Three years(take a lot of courses) and/or a publication or two will look much better. Of course, if you think you can do extra curricular activities to create a portfolio(github projects, contributing to open source, create a product), then it might not matter how well the MS is looked upon, if you show you have a track record of delivering.
- shubb 13y ago
  This bar sounds really very high. I read things like this a lot, but it doesn't match up with what I see. No employer has ever asked me for a github address, or a list of open source commits. I put github on my CV via a goo.gl url last time, and counted very few visits. Yet they invited me for interview. HR filter by qualifications, and hiring managers filter before phone screen on what you claim in your CV. Then they assess at the interview whether you were lieing. If you were genuinely famous in the OS community, or had spent a year full time making an amazing product they could see, I think things would be different. For most software engineers, 80% of our work is for our employer. I've made some awesome stuff for other people. It's not on github. My boss wouldn't like that. Is the above really a good recommendation? I'd say at least the MS would get him through the HR filter?
  - tracker1 13y ago
    I have no formal education beyond H.S. and simply don't list education on my resume... At this point I have about 18 years of experience in Software Development, so take it with a grain of salt. For the most part, education has been a poor indicator of how well a given developer works. I've have seen quite a few interviews where people will look at your github contributions (I have very little).
    - shubb 13y ago
      Yes, I didn't mean to say employers should filter by qualification. For the first 3 years of your career, they just do. Then after that, HR appear to filter by previous job title, hoping to see career progression and a similar title previously. I guess the people at a large company that reduce 200 resumes down to 20, before the hiring mangers sees them, do not understand Ruby. They understand that they must be able to quantify why they rejected an applicant in case of a lawsuit. Hence the frustrating rigidness.
  - josephhardin 13y ago
    The M.S. does, but as stories like this become more common, non-namebrand MS programs will start to lose some luster. Being able to point to a publication, or a project you run, or something genuinely useful to at least someone, goes a long way to distinguish you from the people who went to school, but never programmed in their free time, and do it purely as a job. Passion as a buzzword is very overrated in this community, but at least a little bit of it is required to make you stand out. I'd imagine this goes doubly so for the startup world.

mdasen 13y ago

No. There's a certain snobbery about people who had their act together. Not everyone knew what they wanted to do as an undergrad. You might have more aptitude than people with a BS CS. Pick a program that doesn't treat you as a cash-cow: one where you can take the same courses as undergraduates and PhD students. Then ignore nay-sayers. If it's a two-year program, you can likely get enough courses in to learn something serious. I have less respect for one-year BS/MS masters programs simply because you won't be taking that much. In two years, you could take 12-16 courses and maybe do some research in the second year. When it comes to university credentials, people like to "lock-in" their value. If you went to Harvard, no matter how much of a failure you turn out to be, you went to Harvard and people should respect you. So, if I have a BSCS, there's a great temptation to say, "no, you can't go back in time and get to the same level as me. Even if I'm incompetent at my job, employers should devalue you no matter how good you are because you're that 'absolute lowest form of life in software engineering'". But we shouldn't think that way. You're trying to better yourself. Kudos! To be realistic, you might come out of the program not on-par with the type of student that would be capable of applying to top PhD programs, depending on how rigorous your courses are. Two years can be a short time, especially if you're starting with intro to programming. However, if it's a good program, I think you can come out well among those looking for software engineering jobs.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

205guy 13y ago

As I replied to enraged_camel's thread (linked in his/her comment), what you want is essentially a BS in CS. What's wrong with having multiple BS degrees? How does a BS in one field prepare you for an MS in another? The real issue is that the BS degree covers (roughly) 2 years of general study and 2 years in a major. Anyone that has already done the general study part just wants to do the 2 years part in another field. I think it is a failure of the academic system (in the US) to not break down the degrees correctly and to call those 2 years in another field an MS--should be a 2nd BS. I will note that in Europe, a lot of the general study that US universities do in the first 2 years of a BS are done in the last two years of high school, for example the French baccalaureat (bac).

wilfra 13y ago
I agree what I want is a BS in CS. However getting a second undergrad degree is extremely uncommon in the US. Many schools don't even allow it.
- terenceong 13y ago
  actually, that's not true. i was always under the same impression as you that schools in US don't seem to encourage or even allow second undergrad degrees, having read somewhere before that a first undergrad degree disqualifies you from applying for a second. however, due to a series of unfortunate events, i have discovered that it is not true at all. source = me. i'm currently admitted back to my alma mater for a second degree in CSC and will be returning in fall this year.
glesica 13y ago
Many schools, at least in the US, frown upon students earning a second BS/BA. I tried and was basically told by an admissions counselor that I probably wouldn't be accepted. I was welcome to apply for a master's degree and take any undergraduate courses I needed once I had been provisionally accepted into that program, however. But I wouldn't have earned a BS. I suspect that this might have to do with financial aid rules, but I'm really not sure. I ended up taking some post-bac courses at the university I'd gone to for my BA then going directly into an MS program.

bokglobule 13y ago

I have a BS in CS, Math and Stat, and a MS in CS. I've been a developer for a long time and worked with a lot of other developers. The biggest determinant IMHO to becoming a good, competent developer is the desire to become an even better developer from reading, experimentation on your own time, and an open mind. If you have that kind of passion for software development, you'll do fine, regardless of your original degree (or lack thereof). Having said that, I'm skeptical of the value of a MS in CS without a BS in CS. In my MS program, the assumption was that you had the basics - algorithms, data structures, language theory, basic hardware design & logic, compiler design. You can certainly gain that knowledge with enough reading on your own, or taking some courses at a local community college to get the basics.

thornkin 13y ago
This is what I did. I have a BS in Politics and a MS in CS. Before taking the MS degree, I read a lot of the books one would read for a BS in CS and did a lot of programming. This prepared me well. I met others in the program who didn't and it showed. Taking Masters level courses without background will get you lost really fast.

thirdstation 13y ago

I have a MS in CS but, before enrolling in a graduate program I took 30 credits of undergraduate CS courses at a local university as part of a certificate program. My BA in Journalism did not really prepare me for graduate-level CS work. If this option is available to you then I'd heartily recommend it.

porter 13y ago

I went back at 27 and did post-bac courses to earn the equivalent of a minor in CS. I also taught myself python/django, js/css, basic database theory, and how to use heroku. Now I have a web app with paying customers. There might be other ways to get to where you want to go, without paying a lot of money out of pocket. It all depends on your goals. I too considered those MS programs for non CS undergrads. Because I ultimately knew I wanted an entrepreneurial career, I went more the DIY/non-credential route. My advice - decide what you want to do after you graduate, then work backwards to determine alternative paths. I'm not saying don't go back to school, but I am saying you have a lot of options, which is a great thing.

wilfra 13y ago
Really, really helpful, thanks! Would you mind if I email you a few follow up questions?
- porter 13y ago
  Sure
triplesec 13y ago
great advice!

Nimi 13y ago

"a waste of my time and money?" No, definitely not a waste, but I'm not sure it's an optimal use of those resources. You can try to simply do the minimum to "get your foot in the door" of software development jobs, then take it from there. That minimum is probably taking mostly programming-oriented courses, and asking your programmer friends what else can you study to make you a more appealing candidate. (Not sure I'm qualified to give that advice, but feel free to contact me about that if you want)

mc-lovin 13y ago

Having an MS on your resume is worth it for itself, let alone all the extra knowledge you can get. So the real questions is: can you handle the coursework? Only you can answer that. If you can pass the degree, and it is from a decent school, I don't see how it could fail to be worth it.