4 ms·

Tree farms are not habitat. How is a 40 year old forest not habitat? My problem is when timber companies must extract every board foot from every acre, threat

by Zimahl 13y ago

Tree farms are not habitat. How is a 40 year old forest not habitat? My problem is when timber companies must extract every board foot from every acre, threatening critical habitat, from public forests. To add insult to injury, we (the public) build the roads, and sell the timber at a loss. Lies, lies, and more lies. Have you even been to a cut down forest within the last 20 years? Streams have required easements, there are requirements for leaving a number of trees per acre and any logging roads are paid for by the landowner. The roads are a cost of the harvesting. ...actually paid fair market price for the resources they're stealing. You act like it's a quick turn around. We are talking decades after replanting, there are very few industries that have to follow this. And then, after waiting all that time, you need to hope that the market isn't in the state that it's currently in. Domestic timber is in the dumpster right now due to foreign logs and a lack of new housing.

enraged_camel 13y ago
>>How is a 40 year old forest not habitat? Did you not read the parent's comment? 40 year old forests are not habitat because they don't come with the same ecology. It takes a very, very long time for a proper ecosystem to establish in an area. 40 years is not enough for that. I went camping in Holland ten years ago. Almost all the forests there are second growth forests. As we were setting up our tents, my buddy stopped in his tracks and motioned at me to hush. In the silence, do you know what we heard? Absolutely nothing. No birds, no insects, no forest animals or any kind. It was eerily quiet. It was a forest alright, but it had no ecosystem. It was the most bizarre camping experience I've ever had.
- Zimahl 13y ago
  So obviously you didn't read my original post where I said I was talking about the US and Canada exclusively, which the parent comment was responding to. Go into Canada and the US and camp. Railroad logged anywhere from 150 to 100 years ago, second growth logged from then on. Birds. Deer. Elk. Insects. Owls (even Spotted ones!). Fish in the streams. The US and Canada isn't Europe. This continent has been largely undisturbed until about 300 years ago, and most of it untouched until the last 100 years. We've seen Europe's folly and fortunately didn't make the same mistakes or at least have had time to correct the problem. We also didn't have 2 world wars march across our lands, no trenches, no mustard gas. Much of N. America from just east of the Rockies to the Pacific Ocean is amazing forests. We've made our mistakes with forestry but have atoned and things have healed up nicely. Now we manage the forests for the good of everybody - everyone can have what they want without sacrificing the quality of that resource. Don't be so blind as to just blanket all logging in the world as 'logging bad'.
specialist 13y ago
Lies, lies, and more lies. Nice. Domestic timber is in the dumpster right now due to foreign logs and a lack of new housing. Um, no. Timber, pulp, paper are all cyclic. Always have been, always will be. We are talking decades after replanting, there are very few industries that have to follow this. And then, after waiting all that time, you need to hope that the market isn't in the state that it's currently in. We're talking about public lands. What are you talking about? I care little what timber companies do with the land we gave them last century. But if they're cutting down OUR trees on OUR land, then they have to replant that acreage. If they can't do that profitably, then too bad. There is no right to profit. Don't be so blind as to just blanket all logging in the world as 'logging bad'. You said it. Not me. Projection much?
- Zimahl 13y ago
  I care little what timber companies do with the land we gave them last century. But if they're cutting down OUR trees on OUR land, then they have to replant that acreage. If they can't do that profitably, then too bad. There is no right to profit. You have shown you know very little of the timber industry. Private landowners are under the same laws with respect to replanting as the public lands are. Public lands are logged, sold, and the profits returned to the public in the same free market system. No matter, it ALL has to be replanted. On what planet do you think someone is just letting perfectly good land that can support a forest just sit barren? Unless it's re-zoned into something else, that's not profitable nor sustainable. Our forests are very sustainable. Timber, pulp, paper are all cyclic. Always have been, always will be. If you think the pulp and paper industry will ever be what it once you are fooling yourself. In the electronic age paper is far down it's not even funny. I grew up in a pulp and paper town that is a shell of what it once was.
  - specialist 13y ago
    I grew up in a pulp and paper town that is a shell of what it once was. Blame automation. Full stop. But look at the bright side. Twilight themed tourism is booming.
    - 13y ago

by Zimahl 13y ago

enraged_camel 13y ago

>>How is a 40 year old forest not habitat? Did you not read the parent's comment? 40 year old forests are not habitat because they don't come with the same ecology. It takes a very, very long time for a proper ecosystem to establish in an area. 40 years is not enough for that. I went camping in Holland ten years ago. Almost all the forests there are second growth forests. As we were setting up our tents, my buddy stopped in his tracks and motioned at me to hush. In the silence, do you know what we heard? Absolutely nothing. No birds, no insects, no forest animals or any kind. It was eerily quiet. It was a forest alright, but it had no ecosystem. It was the most bizarre camping experience I've ever had.

Zimahl 13y ago
So obviously you didn't read my original post where I said I was talking about the US and Canada exclusively, which the parent comment was responding to. Go into Canada and the US and camp. Railroad logged anywhere from 150 to 100 years ago, second growth logged from then on. Birds. Deer. Elk. Insects. Owls (even Spotted ones!). Fish in the streams. The US and Canada isn't Europe. This continent has been largely undisturbed until about 300 years ago, and most of it untouched until the last 100 years. We've seen Europe's folly and fortunately didn't make the same mistakes or at least have had time to correct the problem. We also didn't have 2 world wars march across our lands, no trenches, no mustard gas. Much of N. America from just east of the Rockies to the Pacific Ocean is amazing forests. We've made our mistakes with forestry but have atoned and things have healed up nicely. Now we manage the forests for the good of everybody - everyone can have what they want without sacrificing the quality of that resource. Don't be so blind as to just blanket all logging in the world as 'logging bad'.

specialist 13y ago

Lies, lies, and more lies. Nice. Domestic timber is in the dumpster right now due to foreign logs and a lack of new housing. Um, no. Timber, pulp, paper are all cyclic. Always have been, always will be. We are talking decades after replanting, there are very few industries that have to follow this. And then, after waiting all that time, you need to hope that the market isn't in the state that it's currently in. We're talking about public lands. What are you talking about? I care little what timber companies do with the land we gave them last century. But if they're cutting down OUR trees on OUR land, then they have to replant that acreage. If they can't do that profitably, then too bad. There is no right to profit. Don't be so blind as to just blanket all logging in the world as 'logging bad'. You said it. Not me. Projection much?

Zimahl 13y ago
I care little what timber companies do with the land we gave them last century. But if they're cutting down OUR trees on OUR land, then they have to replant that acreage. If they can't do that profitably, then too bad. There is no right to profit. You have shown you know very little of the timber industry. Private landowners are under the same laws with respect to replanting as the public lands are. Public lands are logged, sold, and the profits returned to the public in the same free market system. No matter, it ALL has to be replanted. On what planet do you think someone is just letting perfectly good land that can support a forest just sit barren? Unless it's re-zoned into something else, that's not profitable nor sustainable. Our forests are very sustainable. Timber, pulp, paper are all cyclic. Always have been, always will be. If you think the pulp and paper industry will ever be what it once you are fooling yourself. In the electronic age paper is far down it's not even funny. I grew up in a pulp and paper town that is a shell of what it once was.
- specialist 13y ago
  I grew up in a pulp and paper town that is a shell of what it once was. Blame automation. Full stop. But look at the bright side. Twilight themed tourism is booming.
  - 13y ago