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As a speaker of 3 different languages (English, German and Portuguese/Spanish) I believe that although correct this is a wrong discussion. Yes, languages does i

As a speaker of 3 different languages (English, German and Portuguese/Spanish) I believe that although correct this is a wrong discussion. Yes, languages does influence the way we think, but overall culture does influence a million times more. One example is the democratic debate in English speaking countries compared to the same debate in Portuguese/Spanish countries. I hear a lot of words that don't have a direct translation to a single word: entitlement, pork, accountability, delusion, bullying, patronage, solipsism, ... Because words similar to these don't exist in Spanish/Portuguese I feel that the democratic debate is sometimes so truncated and clunky. Another example might be how any discussion in English is so strongly focused on providing empirical evidence for claims; even today Anglo-Saxon remains the culture of Sir Francis Bacon and the inductive method.

smackay 13y ago
An additional confounding factor is that a lot of the people who are currently in power in these countries grew up and started their careers under the former dictatorships. Indeed the previous systems of entitlement, bullying and patronage nicely describes the way the political parties work in these countries. It will probably need another two generations or so of democracy before the effects of the dictatorships wear off and the limitations or otherwise of the languages start to be visible.
rajeevk 13y ago
Completely agree. It is the culture that influences how we think, not the language. I speak English and Hindi. English is my second language and I never feel like speaking/thinking in English makes me different than I do in Hindi. Attributes of many languages are highly influenced by the culture where it is spoken. For example, Japanese may have a word for some concept which English does not have. This is because that concept may not be important in the culture where English is spoken.
adolfojp 13y ago
In Puerto Rican Spanish we have adopted some of those words and we do have translations for others. But this is due, in part, to our close relationship with the USA. pork (pork barrel) = tocino (barril de tocino) accountability = no direct translation but "responsabilidad" serves the same purpose and "acontabilidad" is slowly entering our lexicon. bullying = no change. We just adopted the word. patronage = padrinaje, apadrinaje solipsism = solipsismo
loupeabody 13y ago
Reasoning must be equivalent across cultures, even where language varies, right? If not, wouldn't sciences be culturally relative (y'know, beyond a certain threshold of like not worshiping a sun-god)? So, to me, what's actually being addressed in this article and with the research involved is merely that language shapes the way we perceive, but not necessarily how we think/reason. It's interesting, but more along the lines of anthropological insight, less how does the way I speak affect the way I write code/solve problems. You say that Anglo-Saxon culture is dominated by inductive reasoning. Is there a different system of reasoning dominant in other cultures? Not trying to be flippant, I'm ignorant of this topic and am interested in hearing what someone who can speak 3 languages knows.
- diego_moita 13y ago
  Well, reasoning is indeed equivalent across cultures, but only when these cultures embrace it. Reasoning is a cultural trait too and a lot of people or cultures don't know the rules of logic. These people/cultures use other ways of convincing and arguing instead of reasoning: strongly held prejudices, religious frameworks, proverbs, tribal loyalties, etc. Besides, inductive method is not the only form of reasoning; I find it interesting how the Germans are so much at ease with deductive reasoning using so precisely defined words and expressions. Like reasoning, another example of a western notion that we think as universal but it isn't: the humanist notion that every human being is worth the same regardless of gender and race. I find it shocking how many people find themselves as being worth less just because they are not white and/or male. In Latin-America this is changing fast and a lot but still is a widespread feeling among native South-Americans, blacks and women in rural settings.
  - loupeabody 13y ago
    This feels like precisely what I was after in picking your brain, especially how German language encourages deductive reasoning (or maybe it's the other way around). It's a pretty obvious connection to me now, knowing German words like gemeinschaft. Perhaps it's fair to generalize that the more specific the concepts behind a language's vocabulary (maybe just the more frequently used words) the greater the average speaker's tendency to use deductive reasoning. Or at least, that's a good point of departure for more investigating. Thanks for the insight!
yeureka 13y ago
Portuguese and Spanish are quite different languages.
- diego_moita 13y ago
  No, not "quite". They are actually very similar to each other. So much that, for non-native speakers, it becomes very hard to try to learn both at same time. Portuguese is just a modern version of Galician (Galego), a Spanish dialect from northwest Spain and northern Portugal. After the expulsion of the Moors invaders in the 8th century, it became Portugal's language. Castilian (Castellano), the root of modern Spanish, is a close sibling to Galician. Good and fluent speakers of Portuguese, Galician and Castilian can understand each other without too much effort.
  - serans 13y ago
    I think it's more correct to say that Portuguese is a modern version of ancient Galician (usually known as Galician-Portuguese), just as modern Galician is.
    - diego_moita 13y ago
      Fair enough, thanks for correcting me.
  - yeureka 13y ago
    I am Portuguese and I lived and worked in Spain for more than 3 years and to lump together Portuguese and Castellian as one language is very weird to me. I had to learn Castellian to be able to be understood in everyday situations, to attend classes and to be able work in an office with natives. Some words are spelled the same but the phonetics are completely different ( unless you speak Brazilian Portuguese which could be argued to be closer to Gallician-Portuguese ), and although Portuguese natives can understand a bit of Castillian ( not to the level of being able to read a newspaper though ), try to get two youths from the streets of Lisbon and Madrid to talk to each other and most likely they will sadly resort to speaking in broken English.
kafkaesque 13y ago
I was an English <> Spanish translator in another life. While I agree with your general idea that there are some untranslatable words, most of the words you cite do have equivalents in Spanish, unless you are referring to false friends. In that case, it'd be great if you could elaborate. But generally speaking, the translations are regionalisms. Also, I'd like to add that language is very much embedded in culture and vice versa. They work off each other and influence each other. I think words are concepts. Some of the discourse of translatability in the Spanish-speaking world, especially when the source language is English, usually deals with the illogical sense of English words. Bullying is a good example, actually. Bullying comes from the Dutch word "brother" and its definition has drifted far away from "fine fellow". In Spanish, the word "bullying" in the 21st century English-speaking sense would be related to mean "acosador", which comes from the Latin cursus/currere which can probably best be defined as "to proceed" in English. So "bullying", as you suggest, might not have a one-word translation, but it could be translated as "acosador escolar". However, because Spanish-speakers understand the importance of world integration, "bullying" is also used, though you get purists and word-rebels in some regions who, incidentally, are also anti-American, anti-consumerism and sceptical of the English-speaking world in general. A similar phenomenon occurs in the UK. You see certain people use an indigenous equivalent instead of adopting a standard "London English" word. It certainly happens in South America. So yes, culture and language are very much tied together. Personally, I think Portuguese, though a romance language, really shouldn't be grouped together with Spanish, even though I can understand most of it, though I've never taken a single Portuguese course in my entire life. My understanding it has to do with studying Latin and Italian. I think the average, educated Spanish speaker would be able to read maybe 50% and understand spoken Brazilian Portuguese even less. Some words and pronunciations have seeped into Argentina, Paraguay and Bolivia, however.
- diego_moita 13y ago
  It is funny how much we agree with each other. When I wrote "direct translation" I meant that I don't know a single word in Spanish or Portuguese that easily translates the whole meaning of those English words. There might be words translating some partial meaning but not fully (e.g: "responsabilidad" vs. accountability). But the main problem is that all translations are too generic and abstract, without the strong specificity of the English original. You showed it very well with the example of bullying, very few people use the translation. I feel that, because these words become vague and generic, they loose some of their original and focused strength. When there is a strong word in Portuguese & Spanish it becomes much more natural (e.g.: "asedio/assédio" means "military siege" in English but is used very colloquially as a translation for harassment). I already posted below in this thread about how the origin of Portuguese and Spanish is so close. I grouped them because for the purpose of this discussion, they are a lot closer among themselves then English and German are. But I surely agree they're not the same language, sorry if I gave this impression.
solarexplorer 13y ago
Not just the word but the whole concept of accountability seems to be lacking in spanish speaking cultures. The language reflects the culture of its speakers...
enraged_camel 13y ago
Just because something does not have a direct translation in a person's language doesn't mean it doesn't exist in that person's thinking. I'm a Turkish native speaker. The other day I was looking for the Turkish equivalent of the English phrase, "calling dibs on something." I asked my mom, my dad, and my sister, and none of them knew. But they knew exactly what I was talking about. Turkish people also call dibs on stuff, they just don't say it out the way English speakers do. At the end of the day you're announcing your claim on something (usually an object), and that's a very common concept. I think the same would apply to the examples you gave.
luketych 13y ago
Have you ever considered that language affects culture and culture affects language, and the two influence each other like a chicken and an egg? Thus it is very difficult to separate the two.

smackay 13y ago

An additional confounding factor is that a lot of the people who are currently in power in these countries grew up and started their careers under the former dictatorships. Indeed the previous systems of entitlement, bullying and patronage nicely describes the way the political parties work in these countries. It will probably need another two generations or so of democracy before the effects of the dictatorships wear off and the limitations or otherwise of the languages start to be visible.

rajeevk 13y ago

Completely agree. It is the culture that influences how we think, not the language. I speak English and Hindi. English is my second language and I never feel like speaking/thinking in English makes me different than I do in Hindi. Attributes of many languages are highly influenced by the culture where it is spoken. For example, Japanese may have a word for some concept which English does not have. This is because that concept may not be important in the culture where English is spoken.

adolfojp 13y ago

In Puerto Rican Spanish we have adopted some of those words and we do have translations for others. But this is due, in part, to our close relationship with the USA. pork (pork barrel) = tocino (barril de tocino) accountability = no direct translation but "responsabilidad" serves the same purpose and "acontabilidad" is slowly entering our lexicon. bullying = no change. We just adopted the word. patronage = padrinaje, apadrinaje solipsism = solipsismo

loupeabody 13y ago

Reasoning must be equivalent across cultures, even where language varies, right? If not, wouldn't sciences be culturally relative (y'know, beyond a certain threshold of like not worshiping a sun-god)? So, to me, what's actually being addressed in this article and with the research involved is merely that language shapes the way we perceive, but not necessarily how we think/reason. It's interesting, but more along the lines of anthropological insight, less how does the way I speak affect the way I write code/solve problems. You say that Anglo-Saxon culture is dominated by inductive reasoning. Is there a different system of reasoning dominant in other cultures? Not trying to be flippant, I'm ignorant of this topic and am interested in hearing what someone who can speak 3 languages knows.

diego_moita 13y ago
Well, reasoning is indeed equivalent across cultures, but only when these cultures embrace it. Reasoning is a cultural trait too and a lot of people or cultures don't know the rules of logic. These people/cultures use other ways of convincing and arguing instead of reasoning: strongly held prejudices, religious frameworks, proverbs, tribal loyalties, etc. Besides, inductive method is not the only form of reasoning; I find it interesting how the Germans are so much at ease with deductive reasoning using so precisely defined words and expressions. Like reasoning, another example of a western notion that we think as universal but it isn't: the humanist notion that every human being is worth the same regardless of gender and race. I find it shocking how many people find themselves as being worth less just because they are not white and/or male. In Latin-America this is changing fast and a lot but still is a widespread feeling among native South-Americans, blacks and women in rural settings.
- loupeabody 13y ago
  This feels like precisely what I was after in picking your brain, especially how German language encourages deductive reasoning (or maybe it's the other way around). It's a pretty obvious connection to me now, knowing German words like gemeinschaft. Perhaps it's fair to generalize that the more specific the concepts behind a language's vocabulary (maybe just the more frequently used words) the greater the average speaker's tendency to use deductive reasoning. Or at least, that's a good point of departure for more investigating. Thanks for the insight!

yeureka 13y ago

Portuguese and Spanish are quite different languages.

diego_moita 13y ago
No, not "quite". They are actually very similar to each other. So much that, for non-native speakers, it becomes very hard to try to learn both at same time. Portuguese is just a modern version of Galician (Galego), a Spanish dialect from northwest Spain and northern Portugal. After the expulsion of the Moors invaders in the 8th century, it became Portugal's language. Castilian (Castellano), the root of modern Spanish, is a close sibling to Galician. Good and fluent speakers of Portuguese, Galician and Castilian can understand each other without too much effort.
- serans 13y ago
  I think it's more correct to say that Portuguese is a modern version of ancient Galician (usually known as Galician-Portuguese), just as modern Galician is.
  - diego_moita 13y ago
    Fair enough, thanks for correcting me.
- yeureka 13y ago
  I am Portuguese and I lived and worked in Spain for more than 3 years and to lump together Portuguese and Castellian as one language is very weird to me. I had to learn Castellian to be able to be understood in everyday situations, to attend classes and to be able work in an office with natives. Some words are spelled the same but the phonetics are completely different ( unless you speak Brazilian Portuguese which could be argued to be closer to Gallician-Portuguese ), and although Portuguese natives can understand a bit of Castillian ( not to the level of being able to read a newspaper though ), try to get two youths from the streets of Lisbon and Madrid to talk to each other and most likely they will sadly resort to speaking in broken English.

kafkaesque 13y ago

I was an English <> Spanish translator in another life. While I agree with your general idea that there are some untranslatable words, most of the words you cite do have equivalents in Spanish, unless you are referring to false friends. In that case, it'd be great if you could elaborate. But generally speaking, the translations are regionalisms. Also, I'd like to add that language is very much embedded in culture and vice versa. They work off each other and influence each other. I think words are concepts. Some of the discourse of translatability in the Spanish-speaking world, especially when the source language is English, usually deals with the illogical sense of English words. Bullying is a good example, actually. Bullying comes from the Dutch word "brother" and its definition has drifted far away from "fine fellow". In Spanish, the word "bullying" in the 21st century English-speaking sense would be related to mean "acosador", which comes from the Latin cursus/currere which can probably best be defined as "to proceed" in English. So "bullying", as you suggest, might not have a one-word translation, but it could be translated as "acosador escolar". However, because Spanish-speakers understand the importance of world integration, "bullying" is also used, though you get purists and word-rebels in some regions who, incidentally, are also anti-American, anti-consumerism and sceptical of the English-speaking world in general. A similar phenomenon occurs in the UK. You see certain people use an indigenous equivalent instead of adopting a standard "London English" word. It certainly happens in South America. So yes, culture and language are very much tied together. Personally, I think Portuguese, though a romance language, really shouldn't be grouped together with Spanish, even though I can understand most of it, though I've never taken a single Portuguese course in my entire life. My understanding it has to do with studying Latin and Italian. I think the average, educated Spanish speaker would be able to read maybe 50% and understand spoken Brazilian Portuguese even less. Some words and pronunciations have seeped into Argentina, Paraguay and Bolivia, however.

diego_moita 13y ago
It is funny how much we agree with each other. When I wrote "direct translation" I meant that I don't know a single word in Spanish or Portuguese that easily translates the whole meaning of those English words. There might be words translating some partial meaning but not fully (e.g: "responsabilidad" vs. accountability). But the main problem is that all translations are too generic and abstract, without the strong specificity of the English original. You showed it very well with the example of bullying, very few people use the translation. I feel that, because these words become vague and generic, they loose some of their original and focused strength. When there is a strong word in Portuguese & Spanish it becomes much more natural (e.g.: "asedio/assédio" means "military siege" in English but is used very colloquially as a translation for harassment). I already posted below in this thread about how the origin of Portuguese and Spanish is so close. I grouped them because for the purpose of this discussion, they are a lot closer among themselves then English and German are. But I surely agree they're not the same language, sorry if I gave this impression.

solarexplorer 13y ago

Not just the word but the whole concept of accountability seems to be lacking in spanish speaking cultures. The language reflects the culture of its speakers...

enraged_camel 13y ago

Just because something does not have a direct translation in a person's language doesn't mean it doesn't exist in that person's thinking. I'm a Turkish native speaker. The other day I was looking for the Turkish equivalent of the English phrase, "calling dibs on something." I asked my mom, my dad, and my sister, and none of them knew. But they knew exactly what I was talking about. Turkish people also call dibs on stuff, they just don't say it out the way English speakers do. At the end of the day you're announcing your claim on something (usually an object), and that's a very common concept. I think the same would apply to the examples you gave.

luketych 13y ago

Have you ever considered that language affects culture and culture affects language, and the two influence each other like a chicken and an egg? Thus it is very difficult to separate the two.