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With this behaviour probably you will survive this project but in the long run, you will be wasting your life and maybe miserably unhappy in the end.

by cateye 13y ago

addandsubtract 13y ago
"Do as you're told" and "Don't talk back" are probably the worst "rules" I've been taught in US grade school. Following that mentality will net you exactly this: a miserable and close-minded life. DO voice your opinion and professional expertise. DO make recommendations as to how to salvage or improve a project. Not doing so will not get you anywhere.
- gbog 13y ago
  That's not true. Being able to endure and suffer silently is a skill that is often the way to survive through struggles and win the game in the end. It is mostly the case for politicians and mafia members, but it is also useful for developers.
  - addandsubtract 13y ago
    Sure, you can play the endure card and just do your job in the hope of one day pulling ahead of everyone. But what if that isn't the case? What if you silently work your ass off and then get laid off anyway? If there's one thing I've learned, it's that you earn what you put in. It's in your interest to push the product, create a drive in the company and basically make it the best environment for you and everyone else to work in. And if that is met with nay-sayers or incompetence, then you should be moving on anyway.
    - michaelochurch 13y ago
      I'm not advising anyone to "silently work your ass off" because that doesn't work either. If you're on a failing project that will harm your career, leave. But leave silently unless there's a credible chance you can fix it (and usually, you can't). If the project is doomed to failure, being a PITA means you're more likely to get fired while silently working out a transfer or next gig has only upside.
- Yourfags 13y ago
  I love how this idealism is so accepted here, sure it works, but there is plenty of good in "staying until the job is done", you just don't believe it.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- bdcravens 13y ago
  I don't think michaelochurch is saying that. Rather, sometimes you look out for #1, which involves doing your best and setting yourself up for long term success.
michaelochurch 13y ago
I'm not saying he needs to stick with the project. I'm saying that it's, on average, bad for your career to try to save a failing project. Better to move to one that will succeed, but you don't get mobility by offending everyone around you, which is often what happens when you try to "save" people in spite of themselves.
- hga 13y ago
  Exactly; I have a bad habit of saving failing projects, generally of companies that had to have them succeed, and very seldom got any thanks from it, even when I was explicitly hired to do just that (sometimes was even purged when technical success was achieved but not cemented, causing the company to later crater). If there is a gentle way of doing this it was beyond my limited interpersonal skills, and I agree with everything Mr. Church is saying here, if you can pull it off (I can't): keep your mouth shut while you pull the ejection handle.
- smacktoward 13y ago
  Or to learn how to differentiate projects that are within your power to save from those that are not. If you're a developer, you often can help save projects that are failing because they were poorly outsourced, or handed to the wrong team, or technically flawed. You usually can't save projects that are failing because management never really believed in them, or that are caught in crossfire between conflicting factions on the corporate board, or that have never been funded/resourced at the levels required for success.

With this behaviour probably you will survive this project but in the long run, you will be wasting your life and maybe miserably unhappy in the end.

by cateye 13y ago

With this behaviour probably you will survive this project but in the long run, you will be wasting your life and maybe miserably unhappy in the end.

addandsubtract 13y ago

"Do as you're told" and "Don't talk back" are probably the worst "rules" I've been taught in US grade school. Following that mentality will net you exactly this: a miserable and close-minded life. DO voice your opinion and professional expertise. DO make recommendations as to how to salvage or improve a project. Not doing so will not get you anywhere.

gbog 13y ago
That's not true. Being able to endure and suffer silently is a skill that is often the way to survive through struggles and win the game in the end. It is mostly the case for politicians and mafia members, but it is also useful for developers.
- addandsubtract 13y ago
  Sure, you can play the endure card and just do your job in the hope of one day pulling ahead of everyone. But what if that isn't the case? What if you silently work your ass off and then get laid off anyway? If there's one thing I've learned, it's that you earn what you put in. It's in your interest to push the product, create a drive in the company and basically make it the best environment for you and everyone else to work in. And if that is met with nay-sayers or incompetence, then you should be moving on anyway.
  - michaelochurch 13y ago
    I'm not advising anyone to "silently work your ass off" because that doesn't work either. If you're on a failing project that will harm your career, leave. But leave silently unless there's a credible chance you can fix it (and usually, you can't). If the project is doomed to failure, being a PITA means you're more likely to get fired while silently working out a transfer or next gig has only upside.
Yourfags 13y ago
I love how this idealism is so accepted here, sure it works, but there is plenty of good in "staying until the job is done", you just don't believe it.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
bdcravens 13y ago
I don't think michaelochurch is saying that. Rather, sometimes you look out for #1, which involves doing your best and setting yourself up for long term success.

michaelochurch 13y ago

I'm not saying he needs to stick with the project. I'm saying that it's, on average, bad for your career to try to save a failing project. Better to move to one that will succeed, but you don't get mobility by offending everyone around you, which is often what happens when you try to "save" people in spite of themselves.

hga 13y ago
Exactly; I have a bad habit of saving failing projects, generally of companies that had to have them succeed, and very seldom got any thanks from it, even when I was explicitly hired to do just that (sometimes was even purged when technical success was achieved but not cemented, causing the company to later crater). If there is a gentle way of doing this it was beyond my limited interpersonal skills, and I agree with everything Mr. Church is saying here, if you can pull it off (I can't): keep your mouth shut while you pull the ejection handle.
smacktoward 13y ago
Or to learn how to differentiate projects that are within your power to save from those that are not. If you're a developer, you often can help save projects that are failing because they were poorly outsourced, or handed to the wrong team, or technically flawed. You usually can't save projects that are failing because management never really believed in them, or that are caught in crossfire between conflicting factions on the corporate board, or that have never been funded/resourced at the levels required for success.