7 ms·

> Freedom is not a necessary condition for economic prosperity (which undermines a lot of American rhetoric of the last 50 years) That is demonstrably false. E

by javert 13y ago

> Freedom is not a necessary condition for economic prosperity (which undermines a lot of American rhetoric of the last 50 years) That is demonstrably false. Everywhere you look, throughout history, the more free a country is, the more economically prosperous it becomes. In fact, _every single example_ fits this pattern. There is not a single exception. China and Singapore are much more economically free than the US (and most other places), and that's why they have seen economic "miracles." If your argument is, "You don't have to have 100% freedom to have economic prosperity," _that_ is true, but it's not an interesting observation. No country in history has (quite) been a utopia of freedom. > The global business community doesn't give a shit about democracy, as demonstrated by its rush to embrace China, the Middle East, etc, and the corresponding apologizing about their political systems. You're treating the "global business community" like it's a "class," in the Marxist sense: a bunch of people who all think alike. In fact, there are just a bunch of individuals. Most businessmen have similar values and ideas to the rest of the culture. Which is to say, not great, not horrible. I plan to go into business eventually in some form, and I hope you don't justify punishing _me_ on the basis of your characterization of the "global business community."

danielweber 13y ago
I'm going to ask for some more explanation of how China is more economically free than the US. What are my property rights like?
- lostlogin 13y ago
  Well, its more free in that you canbribe people safe in the knowledge that this is how the ruling class have acted since Mao (maybe longer?). It's just a business transaction. You can also top up your milk's protein measurements by adding melamine, then use your bribing ability to shut down investigations into the dead babies. The fraud aspect is a greater freedom. Copy and steal overseas companies products and make knockoffs, with no risk of being sued, yet another freedom.
  - CamperBob2 13y ago
    You can also top up your milk's protein measurements by adding melamine, then use your bribing ability to shut down investigations into the dead babies. Yes, you can do that if your idea of a good time is a date with a firing squad. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes-milk-scandal-pair http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes-m...
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      Not sure if that was punishing the crime or punishing the crime because the story broke and the world knows. How many stories are there that never got out, and no one was punished? Good find, I wasn't aware of that part of the story.
- rwmj 13y ago
  Why are property rights (ie. a government granted monopoly) an indication of freedom? Edit: I literally mean property rights, not "IP".
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 13y ago
You're playing fast and loose with the word "free." Sure, no country in history has ever been a utopia of freedom, but I don't consider any country "free" in any sense of the word (even "1% free") that doesn't have meaningful democracy. Indeed, that's what "freedom" has meant for the better part of the last 300-400 years: political self-determination, not "economic freedom." I can't look at a map and conceive of living in any country without a functioning democracy, even though such democracies often curtail economic freedom for the greater good. And I think most people feel the same way, deep down. There is a reason the Chinese crawl over themselves to come to America, not the other way around.
- mseebach 13y ago
  What China shows (and what counters the US rhetoric) is that evidently economic freedom can (at least to some extend) cause prosperity without political freedom. Common wisdom has predicted the rise of some kind of political freedom in China for years now, but what has actually been seen to be on the rise is better governance - an oft-cited example is the case of Bo Xilai[1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Xilai#Downfall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Xilai#Downfall
  - Steko 13y ago
    "What China shows" We certainly haven't seen the endgame of China's development. Confidently claiming that China has 'prosperity without political freedom' is simply playing fast and loose with terminology. The stronger and more educated the middle class gets, the more freedoms they demand. Taiwan and South Korea were dictatorships but get freer every year. Still it took decades of small steps to get where they are today (legitimate elections, opposition parties winning) and clearly China has a long road to even get to where those neighbors are today. "some kind of political freedom" While 2013 China is no poster boy for freedom hasn't the situation improved every decade for 40 years? Isn't China today far more permissive and free than in the past? Obviously in terms of elections maybe not so much but looking only at elections might be ignoring real gains made in rule of law, property rights, speech and social freedoms.
    - 13y ago
PeterisP 13y ago
Freedom and "economic freedom" are two orthogonal, completely different things. You can (and often do) have one without the other and vice versa.
- dmix 13y ago
  Not according to Milton Friedman: > In Capitalism and Freedom (1962), Friedman developed the argument that economic freedom, while itself an extremely important component of total freedom, is also a necessary condition for political freedom. He commented that centralized control of economic activities was always accompanied with political repression. > He argues that, with the means for production under the auspices of the government, it is nearly impossible for real dissent and exchange of ideas to exist. Additionally, economic freedom is important, since any "bi-laterally voluntary and informed" transaction must benefit both parties to the transaction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism_and_Freedom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism_and_Freedom So for example, if something like free speech is limited, economic transactions are no longer free if either side has limited information. Or if you are investing money and the government has manipulated public perception about the market or the economy itself, there is a hazard.
pod4369 13y ago
"That is demonstrably false. Everywhere you look, throughout history, the more free a country is, the more economically prosperous it becomes. In fact, _every single example_ fits this pattern. There is not a single exception." And your source is...? The eyeball test?
Symmetry 13y ago
Between various sorts of capital controls, the huge amount of state owned business, and endemic corruptions I don't see any way you could talk about China being more economically free than the us, unless it's maybe in that many regulations are only sometimes enforced. I disagree with some of Heritage's methodology in their rankings, but they're consistent and there's no measure by which China is ahead of the US in the categories they look at. http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
- SiVal 13y ago
  I have friends and relatives running businesses in China, and I've seen the strange way that corruption makes them more economically free, in important ways, than business owners in the US. These freedoms aren't measurable by ordinary means, but they are very real. It's difficult to know for sure, but my impression is that the number of regulations on businesses are about the same in China and the US. The difference is that, while Americans have to spend their days doing paperwork to comply with all of the regulations, the Chinese can sweep most of them out of their path by making a single payment to their local, corrupt Communist official. Best of all, no paperwork is involved! The reduction in economic friction of letting business owners just spend their time running the business for profits instead of for regulatory compliance is enormous, and it's available for a quick "tax" payment. As the business grows, they need to move up the Communist Party food chain and pay bigger guys more money. The bigger guys then order their subordinates to stay out of the way of the business. I've been driven down long stretches of beautiful, almost empty highway in China in a black luxury car at 150 km/h (~93mph), passing dozens of police cars along the way, and been assured that they (the cops) wouldn't bother us, because "they know who we are". That required regional authority, not local. Of course, part of this "freedom" is the agreement to not do the unforgivable: criticize the government. Your bribes cover most issues but can't cover that one. Fortunately, that's not an issue for most businesses, because they don't make money by criticizing the government. It's amazing how much more economic value a business can create if it gets to spend all of its time doing business instead of doing paperwork. It's also scary how easy it is for those to pay the bribes to harm those who don't (pollution, dangerous working conditions, etc.) Eliminating all regulation would be a bad idea, but there should be some measurement of how much friction loss is caused by government regulation. Some regulations (enforced, of course) are generally helpful to an economy. Some are harmful to everyone except the regulators (worth money and power to them). The Chinese corruption way is the wrong way to go, but I'd like to see our regulators having to live within a "regulatory budget", which prevented them from adding regulatory friction every time they saw an opportunity.
joonix 13y ago
How can you say China is "economically free" with a straight face? Surely people can't believe this. Try to import something into China. Try to take RMB out of it. etc etc. It's one of the most centrally planned economies out there with much of its wealth generated by state-owned companies.
- javert 13y ago
  I said it was _more_ economically free than the US. That's setting a very low bar. The US is a quagmire of mostly (not entirely) pointless regulatory agencies, lawyers, and high taxes. I've heard from businessmen that it's _much, much_ easier to start a business in China. Of course, if you're a huge multinational business, you can just devote .001% of your income to lawyers in the US to make those problems somewhat go away. But that situation is not relevant to me, personally. Of course, you are going to be able to find particular issues where the US is better. For all I know, it may be harder to move RMB in and out of China than it is to move dollars in and out of the USA.
EliRivers 13y ago
"Everywhere you look, throughout history, the more free a country is, the more economically prosperous it becomes." So why isn't Somalia, for example, the richest country on earth?
- dmix 13y ago
  Lawless != freedom. For example, the fair enforcement of property or contract laws is essential for economic prosperity. Also the comment you cited implies relative prosperity within the country itself, not compared to every country in the world.
  - EliRivers 13y ago
    So what's actually needed is not freedom but a set of enforced laws conducive to economic prosperity.
    - dmix 13y ago
      Enforcement of property or contract laws != regulation An uncorrupted legal system, as well as police force, are a necessity for healthy economic functions. Those are the two biggest things Somalia is lacking.
      - dragonwriter 13y ago
        > Enforcement of property or contract laws != regulation Property and contract laws are compulsory rules backed by government force and, therefore, regulation in every meaningful sense. They may be desirable regulation (even assuming a value system where regulation, but for certain special exceptional cases, is undesirable), but calling them "not regulation" is just an exercise in creatively redefining terms to prevent communication.
        dmix 13y ago
        Indeed - backed by court systems. Those are basic legal regulations or established charter rights. Not economic regulation as the original commenter implied and this entire thread is debating.
tptacek 13y ago
China is not remotely as economically free as the US. More than half of Chinese workers are employed by state-owned businesses. State-owned businesses generate something like 40% of all Chinese business profits, often by wielding monopolies.
lolcraft 13y ago
What? No. > There is not a single exception. [of lack of economic freedom and economic prosperity] Except China -- Mostly Unfree. And Brazil -- Mostly Unfree. And Argentina -- don't you know it's Repressed, of all things, according to Heritage's bullshit, yet still a G-15. And Russia -- Mostly Unfree. You know, I just cannot fathom how someone could seriously say Bahrein is more free than Argentina, for any meaningful sense of the term. I mean, in Bahrein atheists are put to death, FFS. Just goes to show how intellectually bankrupt and self-deluded the Heritage Foundation is. > a "class," in the Marxist sense: a bunch of people who all think alike. [...] I hope you don't justify punishing _me_ on the basis of your characterization of the "global business community." I get you're a budding capitalist and all that, but you could at least read the philosophy of your enemies to criticize them. And stop victimizing yourself, while you're at it. But I guess my main point is, congratulations, you took the noble, if largely unrealized, principles of the European forefathers, passed down since the Athenians through Robespierre, Paine, Marat, Jefferson, Bakunin, even Lenin... and then turned them in for the petty ideals of a shopkeeper.
- javert 13y ago
  > Except China -- Mostly Unfree. And Brazil -- Mostly Unfree. And Argentina -- don't you know it's Repressed, of all things, according to Heritage's bullshit, yet still a G-15. And Russia -- Mostly Unfree. They are all approximately prosperous relative to their economic freedom. Your list here isn't very helpful, because rather than comparing two contries and their relative economic freedom in the historical context, you're just saying "Mostly Unfree." That's like saying, "That country gets a 20," without specifying any meaningful scale. > You know, I just cannot fathom how someone could seriously say Bahrein is more free than Argentina, for any meaningful sense of the term. I mean, in Bahrein atheists are put to death, FFS. First, I didn't say that. "Economic prosperity" != "One rich group of families and everyone else is poor." Also, religious freedom != economic freedom. So, yeah, you're just making a mockery of what I said. > I get you're a budding capitalist and all that, but you could at least read the philosophy of your enemies to criticize them. And stop victimizing yourself, while you're at it. > But I guess my main point is, congratulations, you took the noble, if largely unrealized, principles of the European forefathers, passed down since the Athenians through Robespierre, Paine, Marat, Jefferson, Bakunin, even Lenin... and then turned them in for the petty ideals of a shopkeeper. You've stooped to the level of doling out personal insults. I don't get why you would do this. Does it help your argument? No. Does it provide intellectual stimulation? No. Is it within the ethics of this community? No.

by javert 13y ago

danielweber 13y ago

I'm going to ask for some more explanation of how China is more economically free than the US. What are my property rights like?

lostlogin 13y ago
Well, its more free in that you canbribe people safe in the knowledge that this is how the ruling class have acted since Mao (maybe longer?). It's just a business transaction. You can also top up your milk's protein measurements by adding melamine, then use your bribing ability to shut down investigations into the dead babies. The fraud aspect is a greater freedom. Copy and steal overseas companies products and make knockoffs, with no risk of being sued, yet another freedom.
- CamperBob2 13y ago
  You can also top up your milk's protein measurements by adding melamine, then use your bribing ability to shut down investigations into the dead babies. Yes, you can do that if your idea of a good time is a date with a firing squad. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes-milk-scandal-pair http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes-m...
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    Not sure if that was punishing the crime or punishing the crime because the story broke and the world knows. How many stories are there that never got out, and no one was punished? Good find, I wasn't aware of that part of the story.
rwmj 13y ago
Why are property rights (ie. a government granted monopoly) an indication of freedom? Edit: I literally mean property rights, not "IP".

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

rayiner 13y ago

You're playing fast and loose with the word "free." Sure, no country in history has ever been a utopia of freedom, but I don't consider any country "free" in any sense of the word (even "1% free") that doesn't have meaningful democracy. Indeed, that's what "freedom" has meant for the better part of the last 300-400 years: political self-determination, not "economic freedom." I can't look at a map and conceive of living in any country without a functioning democracy, even though such democracies often curtail economic freedom for the greater good. And I think most people feel the same way, deep down. There is a reason the Chinese crawl over themselves to come to America, not the other way around.

mseebach 13y ago
What China shows (and what counters the US rhetoric) is that evidently economic freedom can (at least to some extend) cause prosperity without political freedom. Common wisdom has predicted the rise of some kind of political freedom in China for years now, but what has actually been seen to be on the rise is better governance - an oft-cited example is the case of Bo Xilai[1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Xilai#Downfall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Xilai#Downfall
- Steko 13y ago
  "What China shows" We certainly haven't seen the endgame of China's development. Confidently claiming that China has 'prosperity without political freedom' is simply playing fast and loose with terminology. The stronger and more educated the middle class gets, the more freedoms they demand. Taiwan and South Korea were dictatorships but get freer every year. Still it took decades of small steps to get where they are today (legitimate elections, opposition parties winning) and clearly China has a long road to even get to where those neighbors are today. "some kind of political freedom" While 2013 China is no poster boy for freedom hasn't the situation improved every decade for 40 years? Isn't China today far more permissive and free than in the past? Obviously in terms of elections maybe not so much but looking only at elections might be ignoring real gains made in rule of law, property rights, speech and social freedoms.
  - 13y ago

PeterisP 13y ago

Freedom and "economic freedom" are two orthogonal, completely different things. You can (and often do) have one without the other and vice versa.

dmix 13y ago
Not according to Milton Friedman: > In Capitalism and Freedom (1962), Friedman developed the argument that economic freedom, while itself an extremely important component of total freedom, is also a necessary condition for political freedom. He commented that centralized control of economic activities was always accompanied with political repression. > He argues that, with the means for production under the auspices of the government, it is nearly impossible for real dissent and exchange of ideas to exist. Additionally, economic freedom is important, since any "bi-laterally voluntary and informed" transaction must benefit both parties to the transaction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism_and_Freedom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism_and_Freedom So for example, if something like free speech is limited, economic transactions are no longer free if either side has limited information. Or if you are investing money and the government has manipulated public perception about the market or the economy itself, there is a hazard.

pod4369 13y ago

"That is demonstrably false. Everywhere you look, throughout history, the more free a country is, the more economically prosperous it becomes. In fact, _every single example_ fits this pattern. There is not a single exception." And your source is...? The eyeball test?

Symmetry 13y ago

Between various sorts of capital controls, the huge amount of state owned business, and endemic corruptions I don't see any way you could talk about China being more economically free than the us, unless it's maybe in that many regulations are only sometimes enforced. I disagree with some of Heritage's methodology in their rankings, but they're consistent and there's no measure by which China is ahead of the US in the categories they look at. http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

SiVal 13y ago
I have friends and relatives running businesses in China, and I've seen the strange way that corruption makes them more economically free, in important ways, than business owners in the US. These freedoms aren't measurable by ordinary means, but they are very real. It's difficult to know for sure, but my impression is that the number of regulations on businesses are about the same in China and the US. The difference is that, while Americans have to spend their days doing paperwork to comply with all of the regulations, the Chinese can sweep most of them out of their path by making a single payment to their local, corrupt Communist official. Best of all, no paperwork is involved! The reduction in economic friction of letting business owners just spend their time running the business for profits instead of for regulatory compliance is enormous, and it's available for a quick "tax" payment. As the business grows, they need to move up the Communist Party food chain and pay bigger guys more money. The bigger guys then order their subordinates to stay out of the way of the business. I've been driven down long stretches of beautiful, almost empty highway in China in a black luxury car at 150 km/h (~93mph), passing dozens of police cars along the way, and been assured that they (the cops) wouldn't bother us, because "they know who we are". That required regional authority, not local. Of course, part of this "freedom" is the agreement to not do the unforgivable: criticize the government. Your bribes cover most issues but can't cover that one. Fortunately, that's not an issue for most businesses, because they don't make money by criticizing the government. It's amazing how much more economic value a business can create if it gets to spend all of its time doing business instead of doing paperwork. It's also scary how easy it is for those to pay the bribes to harm those who don't (pollution, dangerous working conditions, etc.) Eliminating all regulation would be a bad idea, but there should be some measurement of how much friction loss is caused by government regulation. Some regulations (enforced, of course) are generally helpful to an economy. Some are harmful to everyone except the regulators (worth money and power to them). The Chinese corruption way is the wrong way to go, but I'd like to see our regulators having to live within a "regulatory budget", which prevented them from adding regulatory friction every time they saw an opportunity.

joonix 13y ago

How can you say China is "economically free" with a straight face? Surely people can't believe this. Try to import something into China. Try to take RMB out of it. etc etc. It's one of the most centrally planned economies out there with much of its wealth generated by state-owned companies.

javert 13y ago
I said it was _more_ economically free than the US. That's setting a very low bar. The US is a quagmire of mostly (not entirely) pointless regulatory agencies, lawyers, and high taxes. I've heard from businessmen that it's _much, much_ easier to start a business in China. Of course, if you're a huge multinational business, you can just devote .001% of your income to lawyers in the US to make those problems somewhat go away. But that situation is not relevant to me, personally. Of course, you are going to be able to find particular issues where the US is better. For all I know, it may be harder to move RMB in and out of China than it is to move dollars in and out of the USA.

EliRivers 13y ago

"Everywhere you look, throughout history, the more free a country is, the more economically prosperous it becomes." So why isn't Somalia, for example, the richest country on earth?

dmix 13y ago
Lawless != freedom. For example, the fair enforcement of property or contract laws is essential for economic prosperity. Also the comment you cited implies relative prosperity within the country itself, not compared to every country in the world.
- EliRivers 13y ago
  So what's actually needed is not freedom but a set of enforced laws conducive to economic prosperity.
  - dmix 13y ago
    Enforcement of property or contract laws != regulation An uncorrupted legal system, as well as police force, are a necessity for healthy economic functions. Those are the two biggest things Somalia is lacking.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > Enforcement of property or contract laws != regulation Property and contract laws are compulsory rules backed by government force and, therefore, regulation in every meaningful sense. They may be desirable regulation (even assuming a value system where regulation, but for certain special exceptional cases, is undesirable), but calling them "not regulation" is just an exercise in creatively redefining terms to prevent communication.
      - dmix 13y ago
        Indeed - backed by court systems. Those are basic legal regulations or established charter rights. Not economic regulation as the original commenter implied and this entire thread is debating.

tptacek 13y ago

China is not remotely as economically free as the US. More than half of Chinese workers are employed by state-owned businesses. State-owned businesses generate something like 40% of all Chinese business profits, often by wielding monopolies.

lolcraft 13y ago

What? No. > There is not a single exception. [of lack of economic freedom and economic prosperity] Except China -- Mostly Unfree. And Brazil -- Mostly Unfree. And Argentina -- don't you know it's Repressed, of all things, according to Heritage's bullshit, yet still a G-15. And Russia -- Mostly Unfree. You know, I just cannot fathom how someone could seriously say Bahrein is more free than Argentina, for any meaningful sense of the term. I mean, in Bahrein atheists are put to death, FFS. Just goes to show how intellectually bankrupt and self-deluded the Heritage Foundation is. > a "class," in the Marxist sense: a bunch of people who all think alike. [...] I hope you don't justify punishing _me_ on the basis of your characterization of the "global business community." I get you're a budding capitalist and all that, but you could at least read the philosophy of your enemies to criticize them. And stop victimizing yourself, while you're at it. But I guess my main point is, congratulations, you took the noble, if largely unrealized, principles of the European forefathers, passed down since the Athenians through Robespierre, Paine, Marat, Jefferson, Bakunin, even Lenin... and then turned them in for the petty ideals of a shopkeeper.

javert 13y ago
> Except China -- Mostly Unfree. And Brazil -- Mostly Unfree. And Argentina -- don't you know it's Repressed, of all things, according to Heritage's bullshit, yet still a G-15. And Russia -- Mostly Unfree. They are all approximately prosperous relative to their economic freedom. Your list here isn't very helpful, because rather than comparing two contries and their relative economic freedom in the historical context, you're just saying "Mostly Unfree." That's like saying, "That country gets a 20," without specifying any meaningful scale. > You know, I just cannot fathom how someone could seriously say Bahrein is more free than Argentina, for any meaningful sense of the term. I mean, in Bahrein atheists are put to death, FFS. First, I didn't say that. "Economic prosperity" != "One rich group of families and everyone else is poor." Also, religious freedom != economic freedom. So, yeah, you're just making a mockery of what I said. > I get you're a budding capitalist and all that, but you could at least read the philosophy of your enemies to criticize them. And stop victimizing yourself, while you're at it. > But I guess my main point is, congratulations, you took the noble, if largely unrealized, principles of the European forefathers, passed down since the Athenians through Robespierre, Paine, Marat, Jefferson, Bakunin, even Lenin... and then turned them in for the petty ideals of a shopkeeper. You've stooped to the level of doling out personal insults. I don't get why you would do this. Does it help your argument? No. Does it provide intellectual stimulation? No. Is it within the ethics of this community? No.