5 ms·

Well, i hope this way Canonical learns the difference between open source community projects and going your own lonely path.

by buster 13y ago

nknighthb 13y ago
So, "open source" now means "Do everything Red Hat's way."? Interesting change in definitions.
- buster 13y ago
  In my own definition open source means "work together, be open about your intentions, contribute".
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    Lennart works almost alone, his "open intentions" are to explicitly not support the wider open source community (like non-Linux kernels and non-GNOME desktops), and he "contributes" to virtually nothing but his own inventions of questionable technical merit. Why you think Canonical is any worse eludes me.
    - mseepgood 13y ago
      > Lennart works almost alone He does not. Systemd has over 370 individual contributors, 15 other people have commit powers beside him. Myth 27: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        Thank you, I've read Lennart's shameless lies on this and many other matters. The truth in this particular case was revealed by Steve Langasek in the recent debian-devel thread[1]. Almost 80% of the systemd code is by Lennart. [1]http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01365.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01365.html
        bkor 13y ago
        You said he mostly works alone. That's something different than amount of code. "Work alone" implies amount of people, not amount of code. Obviously he started systemd and works full time on it. Then loads of other people work on it as well, but not nearly the same amount as he does. Kind of sad to start name calling when you're not clear about this yourself.
        nknighthb 13y ago
        There are no other significant contributors. I consider that "working mostly alone".
        bkor 13y ago
        Nope, that is changing the wording to suit yourself. He started the project and is able to work full time on this. A Mageia packager contributed some very good patches towards systemd. He's not in the email on debian-devel, while he monitors systemd , works with Lennart and others, etc. See his other email: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01367.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01367.html Our Mageia packager is not included. One of the patches he wrote: During the development of the journal he fixed a really important journal memory bug. Took a lot of effort to figure out, etc. But the arbitrary '100 patches' is introduced. Seems rebuttal is pretty biased. PS: Upstart has had 17 contributors. Systemd has 15 people with commit access. Systemd seems way more viable.
        nknighthb 13y ago
        When you've reduced yourself to arguing whether 80% is "mostly" or not, perhaps it's time to reconsider your position? In any case, I won't be responding to you anymore.
        buster 13y ago
        That's just not true, you are talking bullshit here. You can look into the git repository yourself and see who contributed most lines. And it was Kay Sievers, not even Lennart Poettering. edit: @nknight followup: Did you even look into git for yourself? Even with excluding udev the top contributors are: 613 Fabiano Fidêncio 812 Lukas Nykryn 929 Auke Kok 1138 Simon McVittie 1149 Marc-Antoine Perennou 2125 Dan Horák 2215 Thomas Bächler 3619 Harald Hoyer 7924 Michael Biebl 18850 Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek 30226 Tomasz Torcz 168803 Kay Sievers 170196 Lennart Poettering On what planet is that "all by Lennart"?!
    - bkor 13y ago
      Explicitly not support other desktops? That's wrong, systemd is supported by various desktops. In any case systemd is different level, a desktop should add support, not the other way around. Obviously best if a systemd developer helps out with that effort in a desktop, but suggesting systemd project needs to have knowledge/support for desktops is crazy. It doesn't support GNOME, GNOME has support for systemd!
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        > systemd is supported by various desktops Various desktops were forced to adapt to systemd's insanities. This is different from systemd attempting to be a good citizen and support existing mechanisms.
        bkor 13y ago
        Just because I pointed out flaws in your arguments doesn't make it ok to respond like this. Please refute what I said based on clear references and without name calling such as "insanities". E.g. you said: "forced": prove it. Also, you didn't back up your previous claims, just made different claims.
    - buster 13y ago
      I don't see anything wrong with a single developer concentrating on a few projects? How many developers do you know that make significant contributions to many different projects?! Do you have a source for you claim that lennarts explicitely not supports non-Gnome? I think it is pretty clear that he doesn't support non-Linux, but why is that wrong? Looking into the git contributions he is not even the one who contributed most! http://pastebin.com/bkUs3jXa http://pastebin.com/bkUs3jXa On the other hand: What i don't like about Canonical is their latest move to first pretend to support Wayland and then mysteriously presenting Mir all the while spreading bullshit about how Wayland is not good enough.
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        > I don't see anything wrong with a single developer concentrating on a few projects? Neither would I, if they were projects worth concentrating on or of any meaningful long-term value to the community. > I think it is pretty clear that he doesn't support non-Linux, but why is that wrong? systemd invites/demands dependencies on its own, unique interfaces that do not and will not exist outside Linux. This retards progress of other projects in supporting non-Linux systems. Lennart has actively encouraged this: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-May/msg00427.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-May/... > What i don't like about Canonical is their latest move to first pretend to support Wayland and then mysteriously presenting Mir all the while spreading bullshit about how Wayland is not good enough. Red Hat began to support Upstart before switching to their in-house systemd and spreading bullshit about how Upstart is not good enough. Why is it OK when Red Hat tries to come up with new things but not Canonical? Do you work for one of these companies? > Looking into the git contributions he is not even the one who contributed most! See my other post downthread. You are incorrect.
        buster 13y ago
        No, not working for any of them. See my comment that it's still incorrect saying Lennart does all the work. You can easily check the git yourself, go ahead.
        13y ago
- pjmlp 13y ago
  No, it means repeat the errors of the UNIX fragmentation wars.
viraptor 13y ago
Actually it's Redhat that went their own lonely path after trying out upstart and switching away, if I remember correctly. (RHEL 6 had it, to be precise)
- mseepgood 13y ago
  However, it's not a lonely path in this case, because they chose to govern it in a contributor-friendly manner: no contributor license agreements, commit privileges for non-RH developers (non-RH developers are the majority), cross-distribution collaboration, FOSDEM presence etc. In short: They managed to build a healthy community around the project. You can see the differences in numbers: http://www.ohloh.net/p/systemd http://www.ohloh.net/p/systemd http://www.ohloh.net/p/upstart http://www.ohloh.net/p/upstart
  - tshepang 13y ago
    I think those systemd stats are skewed by having udev history imported... earliest commit is 10 years ago, which is far older than systemd.
IanChiles 13y ago
Canonical will learn that soon enough anyways, with everything surrounding Mir. And I'm glad. Their current way of doing things reminds me a lot of how GitHub works with open source, with the major difference that where GitHub builds completely new systems when they're needed/the alternatives aren't up to par, Canonical builds them all over the place, when many times it would be better if they contributed to the existing projects (Wayland, systemd) and expect the same community support that GitHub gets surrounding their open source code (Resque, Chronic, Jekyll, etc). It's kind of disheartening that Canonical keeps trying to "disrupt" existing open source projects by muscling their way behind their own projects, developed in secret, with little to no community input. /rant
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
rlpb 13y ago
This is a common complaint about Canonical. But your post is misleading at best. upstart forged a new path at a time when systemd didn't exist. Ubuntu pioneered it in order to solve a specific problem for which no other solution existed at the time (desktop boot speed). You can complain that Ubuntu has not switched to systemd if you wish, but it is systemd that went down its own path, dragging other upstream projects with it (eg. udev). Red Hat switched to upstart initially, and has now decided to drop it in favour of a new project (systemd).

Well, i hope this way Canonical learns the difference between open source community projects and going your own lonely path.

by buster 13y ago

Well, i hope this way Canonical learns the difference between open source community projects and going your own lonely path.

nknighthb 13y ago

So, "open source" now means "Do everything Red Hat's way."? Interesting change in definitions.

buster 13y ago
In my own definition open source means "work together, be open about your intentions, contribute".
- nknighthb 13y ago
  Lennart works almost alone, his "open intentions" are to explicitly not support the wider open source community (like non-Linux kernels and non-GNOME desktops), and he "contributes" to virtually nothing but his own inventions of questionable technical merit. Why you think Canonical is any worse eludes me.
  - mseepgood 13y ago
    > Lennart works almost alone He does not. Systemd has over 370 individual contributors, 15 other people have commit powers beside him. Myth 27: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      Thank you, I've read Lennart's shameless lies on this and many other matters. The truth in this particular case was revealed by Steve Langasek in the recent debian-devel thread[1]. Almost 80% of the systemd code is by Lennart. [1]http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01365.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01365.html
      - bkor 13y ago
        You said he mostly works alone. That's something different than amount of code. "Work alone" implies amount of people, not amount of code. Obviously he started systemd and works full time on it. Then loads of other people work on it as well, but not nearly the same amount as he does. Kind of sad to start name calling when you're not clear about this yourself.
        nknighthb 13y ago
        There are no other significant contributors. I consider that "working mostly alone".
        bkor 13y ago
        Nope, that is changing the wording to suit yourself. He started the project and is able to work full time on this. A Mageia packager contributed some very good patches towards systemd. He's not in the email on debian-devel, while he monitors systemd , works with Lennart and others, etc. See his other email: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01367.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01367.html Our Mageia packager is not included. One of the patches he wrote: During the development of the journal he fixed a really important journal memory bug. Took a lot of effort to figure out, etc. But the arbitrary '100 patches' is introduced. Seems rebuttal is pretty biased. PS: Upstart has had 17 contributors. Systemd has 15 people with commit access. Systemd seems way more viable.
        nknighthb 13y ago
        When you've reduced yourself to arguing whether 80% is "mostly" or not, perhaps it's time to reconsider your position? In any case, I won't be responding to you anymore.
      - buster 13y ago
        That's just not true, you are talking bullshit here. You can look into the git repository yourself and see who contributed most lines. And it was Kay Sievers, not even Lennart Poettering. edit: @nknight followup: Did you even look into git for yourself? Even with excluding udev the top contributors are: 613 Fabiano Fidêncio 812 Lukas Nykryn 929 Auke Kok 1138 Simon McVittie 1149 Marc-Antoine Perennou 2125 Dan Horák 2215 Thomas Bächler 3619 Harald Hoyer 7924 Michael Biebl 18850 Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek 30226 Tomasz Torcz 168803 Kay Sievers 170196 Lennart Poettering On what planet is that "all by Lennart"?!
  - bkor 13y ago
    Explicitly not support other desktops? That's wrong, systemd is supported by various desktops. In any case systemd is different level, a desktop should add support, not the other way around. Obviously best if a systemd developer helps out with that effort in a desktop, but suggesting systemd project needs to have knowledge/support for desktops is crazy. It doesn't support GNOME, GNOME has support for systemd!
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      > systemd is supported by various desktops Various desktops were forced to adapt to systemd's insanities. This is different from systemd attempting to be a good citizen and support existing mechanisms.
      - bkor 13y ago
        Just because I pointed out flaws in your arguments doesn't make it ok to respond like this. Please refute what I said based on clear references and without name calling such as "insanities". E.g. you said: "forced": prove it. Also, you didn't back up your previous claims, just made different claims.
  - buster 13y ago
    I don't see anything wrong with a single developer concentrating on a few projects? How many developers do you know that make significant contributions to many different projects?! Do you have a source for you claim that lennarts explicitely not supports non-Gnome? I think it is pretty clear that he doesn't support non-Linux, but why is that wrong? Looking into the git contributions he is not even the one who contributed most! http://pastebin.com/bkUs3jXa http://pastebin.com/bkUs3jXa On the other hand: What i don't like about Canonical is their latest move to first pretend to support Wayland and then mysteriously presenting Mir all the while spreading bullshit about how Wayland is not good enough.
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      > I don't see anything wrong with a single developer concentrating on a few projects? Neither would I, if they were projects worth concentrating on or of any meaningful long-term value to the community. > I think it is pretty clear that he doesn't support non-Linux, but why is that wrong? systemd invites/demands dependencies on its own, unique interfaces that do not and will not exist outside Linux. This retards progress of other projects in supporting non-Linux systems. Lennart has actively encouraged this: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-May/msg00427.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-May/... > What i don't like about Canonical is their latest move to first pretend to support Wayland and then mysteriously presenting Mir all the while spreading bullshit about how Wayland is not good enough. Red Hat began to support Upstart before switching to their in-house systemd and spreading bullshit about how Upstart is not good enough. Why is it OK when Red Hat tries to come up with new things but not Canonical? Do you work for one of these companies? > Looking into the git contributions he is not even the one who contributed most! See my other post downthread. You are incorrect.
      - buster 13y ago
        No, not working for any of them. See my comment that it's still incorrect saying Lennart does all the work. You can easily check the git yourself, go ahead.
        13y ago
pjmlp 13y ago
No, it means repeat the errors of the UNIX fragmentation wars.

viraptor 13y ago

Actually it's Redhat that went their own lonely path after trying out upstart and switching away, if I remember correctly. (RHEL 6 had it, to be precise)

mseepgood 13y ago
However, it's not a lonely path in this case, because they chose to govern it in a contributor-friendly manner: no contributor license agreements, commit privileges for non-RH developers (non-RH developers are the majority), cross-distribution collaboration, FOSDEM presence etc. In short: They managed to build a healthy community around the project. You can see the differences in numbers: http://www.ohloh.net/p/systemd http://www.ohloh.net/p/systemd http://www.ohloh.net/p/upstart http://www.ohloh.net/p/upstart
- tshepang 13y ago
  I think those systemd stats are skewed by having udev history imported... earliest commit is 10 years ago, which is far older than systemd.

IanChiles 13y ago

Canonical will learn that soon enough anyways, with everything surrounding Mir. And I'm glad. Their current way of doing things reminds me a lot of how GitHub works with open source, with the major difference that where GitHub builds completely new systems when they're needed/the alternatives aren't up to par, Canonical builds them all over the place, when many times it would be better if they contributed to the existing projects (Wayland, systemd) and expect the same community support that GitHub gets surrounding their open source code (Resque, Chronic, Jekyll, etc). It's kind of disheartening that Canonical keeps trying to "disrupt" existing open source projects by muscling their way behind their own projects, developed in secret, with little to no community input. /rant

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

rlpb 13y ago

This is a common complaint about Canonical. But your post is misleading at best. upstart forged a new path at a time when systemd didn't exist. Ubuntu pioneered it in order to solve a specific problem for which no other solution existed at the time (desktop boot speed). You can complain that Ubuntu has not switched to systemd if you wish, but it is systemd that went down its own path, dragging other upstream projects with it (eg. udev). Red Hat switched to upstart initially, and has now decided to drop it in favour of a new project (systemd).