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Lets forget about technology. Technology is by no means the only work area that's very out of kilter in terms of gender distribution. Technology is just a very

Lets forget about technology. Technology is by no means the only work area that's very out of kilter in terms of gender distribution. Technology is just a very well paying and fairly prominent industry, so it's talked about a lot more then say truck driving. Lets concentrate purely on gender imbalanced groups. Any gathering of humans where the sexes are not proximately 50/50 or 60/40 but 90/10 or even more extreme. I think we can all agree that this is neither natural nor healthy. But, once a population goes out of what like that, the imbalance can work to maintain intself. It's an interesting group dynamic, but I've heard male nurses complain much like I've heard female programmers complain. That's why I think that a 90/10 or worse split is obviously not a good thing, for almost any human endeavor. Some exceptions certainly apply, like monasteries. And I think a 90/10 or worse split can become self maintaining. But I'm not sure there's a practical solution for this. No amount of encouragement or gentle prodding will fix this.

jacoblyles 18y ago
>"Lets concentrate purely on gender imbalanced groups. Any gathering of humans where the sexes are not proximately 50/50 or 60/40 but 90/10 or even more extreme. >I think we can all agree that this is neither natural nor healthy." I agree with your main point, but not this one. There are clear differences in personality distribution between the sexes, either due to biology or culture, that can effect their relative desire to participate in various activities. A few activities will have gender ratio imbalances, and that's not necessarily unnatural or unhealthy. Men have been doing the lion's share of hunting and war since time immemorial. The problem is that CS doesn't obviously have to be one of those activities. It seems to maintain its gender imbalance more through inertia than necessity, as you said. While other sciences also have gender imbalances, they tend to be much less extreme, and I think it possible that CS can move in that direction.
- biohacker42 18y ago
  Some exceptions certainly apply, like monasteries. That's to say, yes I agree with man have and will almost certainly continue to make up the vast majority of soldiers. But as you said, the gender imbalance in IT, or for that matter nursing, seems to have a lot to do with inertia. Which is just kind of sad.
lethain 18y ago
I don't think we can argue that it isn't natural. Before the last century or two it was rather natural, among other species it is quite common for genders to have specialized roles as well, and there are certain roles which will always be imbalanced (childbearing, for one). As I understand it, in the end the objection to gender imbalance is that it constitutes an unfairness to either the minority (executives, programmer) or majority (nurses + school teaching during the period their wage/benefits were still severely depressed by gender imbalance). I don't think we can argue that unfairness is a threat to the system or to groups, it is universal. Rather, I think we just prefer not to realize it's there.
- biohacker42 18y ago
  Among other species exist all kinds of adaptations, for example birds can fly, and that's natural for THEM. Just because elephant herds consist of females and juveniles, while bull elephants roam alone, that doesn't make it natural for us hominids. The only time the sex ration goes well beyond 70/30 in great apes or monkeys it's because of some natural disaster. A century or two ago, women were property, and kept out of a lot of social life. Like they are today in Saudi Arabia. That also does not make it natural. While gender imbalance is often about economic discrimination, and especially has been in the past, I think today women have ample economic opportunities. So I don't perceive the lack of women in tech. as punitive to women. I think it's punitive to the (overwhelmingly) men and women who are in it today. It's just a weird environment, and that weirdness in itself has no benefit.
ahoyhere 18y ago
Why is it neither natural nor healthy? An industry is not a society. You aren't restricted to choosing a mate from your company or your industry, so the main issue of an extreme gender mix (mate resources) is not an issue.

jacoblyles 18y ago

>"Lets concentrate purely on gender imbalanced groups. Any gathering of humans where the sexes are not proximately 50/50 or 60/40 but 90/10 or even more extreme. >I think we can all agree that this is neither natural nor healthy." I agree with your main point, but not this one. There are clear differences in personality distribution between the sexes, either due to biology or culture, that can effect their relative desire to participate in various activities. A few activities will have gender ratio imbalances, and that's not necessarily unnatural or unhealthy. Men have been doing the lion's share of hunting and war since time immemorial. The problem is that CS doesn't obviously have to be one of those activities. It seems to maintain its gender imbalance more through inertia than necessity, as you said. While other sciences also have gender imbalances, they tend to be much less extreme, and I think it possible that CS can move in that direction.

biohacker42 18y ago
Some exceptions certainly apply, like monasteries. That's to say, yes I agree with man have and will almost certainly continue to make up the vast majority of soldiers. But as you said, the gender imbalance in IT, or for that matter nursing, seems to have a lot to do with inertia. Which is just kind of sad.

lethain 18y ago

I don't think we can argue that it isn't natural. Before the last century or two it was rather natural, among other species it is quite common for genders to have specialized roles as well, and there are certain roles which will always be imbalanced (childbearing, for one). As I understand it, in the end the objection to gender imbalance is that it constitutes an unfairness to either the minority (executives, programmer) or majority (nurses + school teaching during the period their wage/benefits were still severely depressed by gender imbalance). I don't think we can argue that unfairness is a threat to the system or to groups, it is universal. Rather, I think we just prefer not to realize it's there.

biohacker42 18y ago
Among other species exist all kinds of adaptations, for example birds can fly, and that's natural for THEM. Just because elephant herds consist of females and juveniles, while bull elephants roam alone, that doesn't make it natural for us hominids. The only time the sex ration goes well beyond 70/30 in great apes or monkeys it's because of some natural disaster. A century or two ago, women were property, and kept out of a lot of social life. Like they are today in Saudi Arabia. That also does not make it natural. While gender imbalance is often about economic discrimination, and especially has been in the past, I think today women have ample economic opportunities. So I don't perceive the lack of women in tech. as punitive to women. I think it's punitive to the (overwhelmingly) men and women who are in it today. It's just a weird environment, and that weirdness in itself has no benefit.

ahoyhere 18y ago

Why is it neither natural nor healthy? An industry is not a society. You aren't restricted to choosing a mate from your company or your industry, so the main issue of an extreme gender mix (mate resources) is not an issue.