3 ms·

I really want to understand this "proprietary information" excuse the school is using to justify not releasing the survey. Certainly the kids can go home and te

by nsxwolf 13y ago

I really want to understand this "proprietary information" excuse the school is using to justify not releasing the survey. Certainly the kids can go home and tell their parents what they saw (and some have). The kids didn't sign an NDA, they saw it, so why can't we see it? This story is happening in my town. There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending.

TallGuyShort 13y ago
Unless it's well-covered by other sources, I would kindly ask you to blog your observations and share them with us :)
- nsxwolf 13y ago
  I certainly will.
  - guiambros 13y ago
    Thanks in advance for reporting back! Saving the thread here, to read it later.. As the teacher said, the focus should be on the survey, not his acts. Of course, provided that he doesn't suffer any unfair and ridiculous disciplinary actions.
  - quantumpotato_ 13y ago
    Thank you! Looking forward to it.
  - bx_ 13y ago
    Agreed -- would love to know how this goes!
btilly 13y ago
My guess is that the survey was bought from a private company on a contract that says it is that company's property and not to be shared. Therefore if the school released the form, they could be sued by said private company both for violating copyright and contract. (And the company would want that because they want to resell the survey to other schools.) Stupid, yes. But I think it is likely that the school has a real legal barrier to sharing the survey.
- ojbyrne 13y ago
  It basically says that in the article. It's not completely unequivocal, but close.
- readme 13y ago
  > Stupid, yes. But I think it is likely that the school has a real legal barrier to sharing the survey. It could be. It could also be that the people who dreamed up this survey saw that legal barrier as a convenience. You can administer an unfair and potentially useless, invasive, survey, to your students, AND you have a "reason" not to tell the media, too! Had I been a student at this school, I would have put my survey directly in the trash. The idea that a publically funded school is passing out surveys to students, and we cannot read them, makes me rage. If this doesn't anger you, then something is wrong. The reason is irrelevant, they should have thought about that before buying the survey. When tyranny comes it is not going to introduce itself. No one is going to hand you a pamphlet, entitled: "Your rights, and lack thereof" and roll out the details of how they will all be taken away. It will do so by stealth. It will do so by employing lame excuses. It will come as a trojan horse. Increased security, no more terrorist attacks! This is all secret so we can keep the kids off drugs! The road to hell was paved with good intentions. This teacher is a hero.
  - rdtsc 13y ago
    > The idea that a publically funded school is passing out surveys to students, and we cannot read them, makes me rage. I I bet all that was done was done under the public guise of "protecting the children" (then again what isn't these days...). Privately all that was done was to protect the behinds of the administrator in case some kid does something "crazy" and the school is sued or criticized. They want to have something to point to and say "Aha but we did everything we could, see...! we hired professionals in the field to find troubled teens, if they couldn't don't blame us". Simple as that. That is the reason there are so many bullshit business consulting companies. It lets those implementing risky and unsound/unpopular idea to go and point their finger to and say "see we hired professional and they agreed with us, these are world class consultants, if they couldn't predict failure, how could you blame us, simple administrators/executives/board of directors..." stuff like that. It is all basically about having a scapegoat in the end.
CurtMonash 13y ago
It's copyrighted information. How much could be released under "fair use" is questionable. Schools abuse copyright in some ways, and probably compensate by being rigorous in others. Further, if it comes from a company that also offers more conventional achievement kinds of tests, it may come with bloodthirsty NDAs, as a matter of habit for such companies.
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
  > It's copyrighted information. It's a public school. So copyrights are now more important than parents rights? What a lame excuse. Maybe that's also why our - so called - Representatives in Congress can't see the Acts they are voting into the Law? Because it's copyrighted by Lobbyists? What a joke of a country.
- betterunix 13y ago
  So what? The school can give copies to students. Why can they not give one of those copies to a parent or reporter? Copyright does not stop you from giving a copy to someone, it only stops you from making more copies.
  - aidenn0 13y ago
    Sort-of. If the copies came with a license agreement forbidding you giving a copy to the press, then you might be liable if you did. Furthermore if members of the press got a copy, they might be forbidden from publishing the test in full. A sample single question from the test (alluding to illegal activity) would likely be fair-use.
    - betterunix 13y ago
      "Sort-of. If the copies came with a license agreement forbidding you giving a copy to the press, then you might be liable if you did." Except that you do not need a license unless you are making copies. The only reason you see licenses with software is that the process of installing software is making a copy of that software. Books do not come with licenses, because you do not copy a book in order to read it. "Furthermore if members of the press got a copy, they might be forbidden from publishing the test in full." I am pretty sure that even a full reproduction in a newspaper could be fair use, since it is for purely journalistic purposes and the publishing of the questionnaire would not impact the market in any way (the scrutiny by the press might, but criticism is also covered by fair use).
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
psc 13y ago
I would try making a FOIA request for the survey—on the school district's website, there's a link for requests: http://www.bps101.net/node/936 http://www.bps101.net/node/936
- specialist 13y ago
  This is a terrific idea. I've done many FOIA requests. It's worthwhile in so many ways. If the gatekeepers don't provide the information (malicious compliance, obfuscation, foot dragging, denying request), you've got grist for the mill. EVERYONE supports "open government" and will support your efforts. It's best (PR wise) to get the incriminating information after a long drawn out fight.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
markdown 13y ago
Yeah, that's really weird and wouldn't fly in my country. There is nothing you can show my kids in school that you can legally keep from me. The public (parents in particular) ought to have the right to know everything that their kids see.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
alanctgardner2 13y ago
It's likely a real psychometric survey that the school pays per copy for, and so the company that produced it (like Pearson) treats it as their IP. They do the same thing to psychologists: sell them a survey, and then 'refills' of the questionaire so that they're only allowed to administer the test n times before paying again. It's an interesting problem, because the companies involved fund studies to improve the diagnostic power of the test (tweaking the questions and scoring), but then lock up what they find out. (Here's an example of a commercial psychometric survey: http://www.talentlens.co.uk/select/giotto http://www.talentlens.co.uk/select/giotto)
- LanceH 13y ago
  And the education machine buys this stuff non-stop. At the same time every individual school will have dozens of people with graduate degrees. Much of those graduate degrees will be based on classes and research about how to acquire exactly this type of data. And yet, they are unable to make these things themselves and go out and purchase them in the most expensive way possible. The amount of waste involved in the education process is mind boggling.
  - alanctgardner2 13y ago
    That's like saying that because hospitals have radiation techs, they should save money by building their own MRIs. I was trying very carefully not to say that there's no value in these surveys, because they are designed by experts: PhDs, running statistically significant experiments. Sample sizes on the ones I've looked at are in the hundreds, which is pretty huge for a psych experiment. Just slapping one together based on a few classes you took would be irresponsible and probably not very useful as a diagnostic. My complaint is mostly that since we're publicly funding these experiments anyways (one government body buys them from a company, who gives some money to another government body), we should cut out the middle-man.
specialist 13y ago
There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending. That's awesome. This is what democracy looks like. I got hooked attending some townhalls on my pet topic. I've learned so much about politics, policy, etc. these last 8 years. #1 Show up. #2 Keep showing up. #3 Bring your friends. It's ridiculous how few people shape policy. The upside is adding a few more people to the debate can significantly shape outcomes. If you become credible (learn a topic well enough to speak to all points), and you pack council chambers with your supporters, you will change policy. Everyone focuses on campaigns. The real action is in policy. Politics is a dirty, filthy business, but it's still worthwhile. I strongly recommend Camp Wellstone. There's an "activist" track. Anyone aware of methodology or project management will grok their techniques immediately. The focus is policy vs products. http://www.wellstone.org/programs/camp-wellstone http://www.wellstone.org/programs/camp-wellstone
- rdtsc 13y ago
  Interesting. Who else shows up? Do local corporations send representatives and "experts"? What is the average profile of attendees?
  - specialist 13y ago
    Depends on the issue. For election integrity, it was a small group of us vs everyone else. I've testified opposite Mark Radke of Diebold, county auditors, county executives, election administrators, retired generals, people representing the disabled community, etc. One time, our issue followed the kittens and puppies on the agenda. Something about a kennel. Council was PACKED. EVERYONE showed up for the puppies and kittens. Whereas it was just me and my cohort representing the interests of democracy. Looking at the turnout for the puppies and kittens, I turned to my cohort and said "We're doing this wrong." The times we "won", it was either because we packed the hearing or I had better (embarrassing) information.
- cortesoft 13y ago
  The world is run by people who show up.
- 13y ago
nsxwolf 13y ago
Standing here now, waiting for it to start. About 100 people here so far.
- alwaysinshade 13y ago
  Looking forward to your observations. Be sure to post a link if you're going to blog the results.
- mcallan83 13y ago
  Looks like the board authorized a notice of remediation against the teacher. Here is a video of the decision: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Is_Awj4Pvg&feature=youtu.be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Is_Awj4Pvg&feature=youtu....
- nsxwolf 13y ago
  So there were more than 100 people crowded into a small room and spilling out into the hallway. Some highlights: - A father who made a point of stating he disagrees politically with Dryden but vehemently supports him and his views on the 5th amendment - A mother complained the "opt out" email that was sent did not mention the self incriminating nature of the questions. She was concerned about the lack of confidentiality and the overall effectiveness of a survey that kids had admitted lying on. - A student noted the inconsistency in teaching children about their rights academically, only to deny them in practice. In the end, I was impressed with this community's response and how this issue managed to bring so many political opposites together in support of our rights. Too bad it all fell on deaf ears, though.

by nsxwolf 13y ago

TallGuyShort 13y ago

Unless it's well-covered by other sources, I would kindly ask you to blog your observations and share them with us :)

nsxwolf 13y ago
I certainly will.
- guiambros 13y ago
  Thanks in advance for reporting back! Saving the thread here, to read it later.. As the teacher said, the focus should be on the survey, not his acts. Of course, provided that he doesn't suffer any unfair and ridiculous disciplinary actions.
- quantumpotato_ 13y ago
  Thank you! Looking forward to it.
- bx_ 13y ago
  Agreed -- would love to know how this goes!

btilly 13y ago

My guess is that the survey was bought from a private company on a contract that says it is that company's property and not to be shared. Therefore if the school released the form, they could be sued by said private company both for violating copyright and contract. (And the company would want that because they want to resell the survey to other schools.) Stupid, yes. But I think it is likely that the school has a real legal barrier to sharing the survey.

ojbyrne 13y ago
It basically says that in the article. It's not completely unequivocal, but close.
readme 13y ago
> Stupid, yes. But I think it is likely that the school has a real legal barrier to sharing the survey. It could be. It could also be that the people who dreamed up this survey saw that legal barrier as a convenience. You can administer an unfair and potentially useless, invasive, survey, to your students, AND you have a "reason" not to tell the media, too! Had I been a student at this school, I would have put my survey directly in the trash. The idea that a publically funded school is passing out surveys to students, and we cannot read them, makes me rage. If this doesn't anger you, then something is wrong. The reason is irrelevant, they should have thought about that before buying the survey. When tyranny comes it is not going to introduce itself. No one is going to hand you a pamphlet, entitled: "Your rights, and lack thereof" and roll out the details of how they will all be taken away. It will do so by stealth. It will do so by employing lame excuses. It will come as a trojan horse. Increased security, no more terrorist attacks! This is all secret so we can keep the kids off drugs! The road to hell was paved with good intentions. This teacher is a hero.
- rdtsc 13y ago
  > The idea that a publically funded school is passing out surveys to students, and we cannot read them, makes me rage. I I bet all that was done was done under the public guise of "protecting the children" (then again what isn't these days...). Privately all that was done was to protect the behinds of the administrator in case some kid does something "crazy" and the school is sued or criticized. They want to have something to point to and say "Aha but we did everything we could, see...! we hired professionals in the field to find troubled teens, if they couldn't don't blame us". Simple as that. That is the reason there are so many bullshit business consulting companies. It lets those implementing risky and unsound/unpopular idea to go and point their finger to and say "see we hired professional and they agreed with us, these are world class consultants, if they couldn't predict failure, how could you blame us, simple administrators/executives/board of directors..." stuff like that. It is all basically about having a scapegoat in the end.

CurtMonash 13y ago

It's copyrighted information. How much could be released under "fair use" is questionable. Schools abuse copyright in some ways, and probably compensate by being rigorous in others. Further, if it comes from a company that also offers more conventional achievement kinds of tests, it may come with bloodthirsty NDAs, as a matter of habit for such companies.

LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
> It's copyrighted information. It's a public school. So copyrights are now more important than parents rights? What a lame excuse. Maybe that's also why our - so called - Representatives in Congress can't see the Acts they are voting into the Law? Because it's copyrighted by Lobbyists? What a joke of a country.
betterunix 13y ago
So what? The school can give copies to students. Why can they not give one of those copies to a parent or reporter? Copyright does not stop you from giving a copy to someone, it only stops you from making more copies.
- aidenn0 13y ago
  Sort-of. If the copies came with a license agreement forbidding you giving a copy to the press, then you might be liable if you did. Furthermore if members of the press got a copy, they might be forbidden from publishing the test in full. A sample single question from the test (alluding to illegal activity) would likely be fair-use.
  - betterunix 13y ago
    "Sort-of. If the copies came with a license agreement forbidding you giving a copy to the press, then you might be liable if you did." Except that you do not need a license unless you are making copies. The only reason you see licenses with software is that the process of installing software is making a copy of that software. Books do not come with licenses, because you do not copy a book in order to read it. "Furthermore if members of the press got a copy, they might be forbidden from publishing the test in full." I am pretty sure that even a full reproduction in a newspaper could be fair use, since it is for purely journalistic purposes and the publishing of the questionnaire would not impact the market in any way (the scrutiny by the press might, but criticism is also covered by fair use).

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

psc 13y ago

I would try making a FOIA request for the survey—on the school district's website, there's a link for requests: http://www.bps101.net/node/936 http://www.bps101.net/node/936

specialist 13y ago
This is a terrific idea. I've done many FOIA requests. It's worthwhile in so many ways. If the gatekeepers don't provide the information (malicious compliance, obfuscation, foot dragging, denying request), you've got grist for the mill. EVERYONE supports "open government" and will support your efforts. It's best (PR wise) to get the incriminating information after a long drawn out fight.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

markdown 13y ago

Yeah, that's really weird and wouldn't fly in my country. There is nothing you can show my kids in school that you can legally keep from me. The public (parents in particular) ought to have the right to know everything that their kids see.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

alanctgardner2 13y ago

It's likely a real psychometric survey that the school pays per copy for, and so the company that produced it (like Pearson) treats it as their IP. They do the same thing to psychologists: sell them a survey, and then 'refills' of the questionaire so that they're only allowed to administer the test n times before paying again. It's an interesting problem, because the companies involved fund studies to improve the diagnostic power of the test (tweaking the questions and scoring), but then lock up what they find out. (Here's an example of a commercial psychometric survey: http://www.talentlens.co.uk/select/giotto http://www.talentlens.co.uk/select/giotto)

LanceH 13y ago
And the education machine buys this stuff non-stop. At the same time every individual school will have dozens of people with graduate degrees. Much of those graduate degrees will be based on classes and research about how to acquire exactly this type of data. And yet, they are unable to make these things themselves and go out and purchase them in the most expensive way possible. The amount of waste involved in the education process is mind boggling.
- alanctgardner2 13y ago
  That's like saying that because hospitals have radiation techs, they should save money by building their own MRIs. I was trying very carefully not to say that there's no value in these surveys, because they are designed by experts: PhDs, running statistically significant experiments. Sample sizes on the ones I've looked at are in the hundreds, which is pretty huge for a psych experiment. Just slapping one together based on a few classes you took would be irresponsible and probably not very useful as a diagnostic. My complaint is mostly that since we're publicly funding these experiments anyways (one government body buys them from a company, who gives some money to another government body), we should cut out the middle-man.

specialist 13y ago

There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending. That's awesome. This is what democracy looks like. I got hooked attending some townhalls on my pet topic. I've learned so much about politics, policy, etc. these last 8 years. #1 Show up. #2 Keep showing up. #3 Bring your friends. It's ridiculous how few people shape policy. The upside is adding a few more people to the debate can significantly shape outcomes. If you become credible (learn a topic well enough to speak to all points), and you pack council chambers with your supporters, you will change policy. Everyone focuses on campaigns. The real action is in policy. Politics is a dirty, filthy business, but it's still worthwhile. I strongly recommend Camp Wellstone. There's an "activist" track. Anyone aware of methodology or project management will grok their techniques immediately. The focus is policy vs products. http://www.wellstone.org/programs/camp-wellstone http://www.wellstone.org/programs/camp-wellstone

rdtsc 13y ago
Interesting. Who else shows up? Do local corporations send representatives and "experts"? What is the average profile of attendees?
- specialist 13y ago
  Depends on the issue. For election integrity, it was a small group of us vs everyone else. I've testified opposite Mark Radke of Diebold, county auditors, county executives, election administrators, retired generals, people representing the disabled community, etc. One time, our issue followed the kittens and puppies on the agenda. Something about a kennel. Council was PACKED. EVERYONE showed up for the puppies and kittens. Whereas it was just me and my cohort representing the interests of democracy. Looking at the turnout for the puppies and kittens, I turned to my cohort and said "We're doing this wrong." The times we "won", it was either because we packed the hearing or I had better (embarrassing) information.
cortesoft 13y ago
The world is run by people who show up.
13y ago

nsxwolf 13y ago

Standing here now, waiting for it to start. About 100 people here so far.

alwaysinshade 13y ago
Looking forward to your observations. Be sure to post a link if you're going to blog the results.
mcallan83 13y ago
Looks like the board authorized a notice of remediation against the teacher. Here is a video of the decision: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Is_Awj4Pvg&feature=youtu.be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Is_Awj4Pvg&feature=youtu....
nsxwolf 13y ago
So there were more than 100 people crowded into a small room and spilling out into the hallway. Some highlights: - A father who made a point of stating he disagrees politically with Dryden but vehemently supports him and his views on the 5th amendment - A mother complained the "opt out" email that was sent did not mention the self incriminating nature of the questions. She was concerned about the lack of confidentiality and the overall effectiveness of a survey that kids had admitted lying on. - A student noted the inconsistency in teaching children about their rights academically, only to deny them in practice. In the end, I was impressed with this community's response and how this issue managed to bring so many political opposites together in support of our rights. Too bad it all fell on deaf ears, though.