17 ms·

Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

414 points by nsxwolf 13y ago

honzzz 13y ago
Social research 101: any non-anonymous questionnaire asking sensitive questions is totally useless. Social studies freshman would get F for that. Regardless of 5th amendment issues... how could anyone pay for that is beyond me - that school is wasting taxpayers money.
tokenadult 13y ago
"But John Dryden said he's not the point. He wants people to focus on the issue he raised: Whether school officials considered that students could incriminate themselves with their answers to the survey that included questions about drug and alcohol use." To me, that sounds like an unusually thoughtful social studies teacher. He is relating the general concepts that he is hired to teach his students to a real-world situation facing the students, and that sounds like good teaching to me. He ought to get a promotion or a raise, based only on this news about his public behavior in the classroom. It is, of course, sometimes appropriate for schools to distribute surveys to minor students in their care on which there may be questions about student behavior that may be embarrassing or illegal. But the teacher, based on the report here, is just asking his students to think about their lessons and what those lessons mean, not trying to undermine the survey process. "But Dryden doesn't want this seen as him vs. the administrators. He said he knows they were acting in what they thought was the best interests of the students. "'These are good, professional, smart people on the other side who want to do what is right by kids,' he said. "He would rather focus the discussion on the survey. "'I have asked people (the supporters) to talk about the survey. I think I am a sideshow,' he said. 'This (the survey) was rushed and it wasn't vetted.' "'I'm not a martyr,' he said. 'I'm trying to refocus people's attentions. Calm down.'"
- nsxwolf 13y ago
  I really want to understand this "proprietary information" excuse the school is using to justify not releasing the survey. Certainly the kids can go home and tell their parents what they saw (and some have). The kids didn't sign an NDA, they saw it, so why can't we see it? This story is happening in my town. There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending.
  - TallGuyShort 13y ago
    Unless it's well-covered by other sources, I would kindly ask you to blog your observations and share them with us :)
    - nsxwolf 13y ago
      I certainly will.
      - guiambros 13y ago
        Thanks in advance for reporting back! Saving the thread here, to read it later.. As the teacher said, the focus should be on the survey, not his acts. Of course, provided that he doesn't suffer any unfair and ridiculous disciplinary actions.
      - quantumpotato_ 13y ago
        Thank you! Looking forward to it.
      - bx_ 13y ago
        Agreed -- would love to know how this goes!
  - btilly 13y ago
    My guess is that the survey was bought from a private company on a contract that says it is that company's property and not to be shared. Therefore if the school released the form, they could be sued by said private company both for violating copyright and contract. (And the company would want that because they want to resell the survey to other schools.) Stupid, yes. But I think it is likely that the school has a real legal barrier to sharing the survey.
    - ojbyrne 13y ago
      It basically says that in the article. It's not completely unequivocal, but close.
    - 13y ago
- __--__ 13y ago
  He sounds a lot like my social studies teacher in high school. He was the best teacher I ever had because he was a complete, utter bastard. He didn't care if you had the right answer, you had to back it up with facts. He gave us 5 page papers to do every night and a 10 page research paper every semester. Both of those things were crucial to my development of critical thought and being able to communicate it, something nobody else bothered to teach, even in college. He was fired a few years after I graduated. Which wasn't surprising - he constantly pissed off the school board and other teachers. Dryden sounds a lot more politic than my teacher was.
DanBC 13y ago
Did they risk manage this survey? What do they do if a student reveals an alcohol problem? Or sexual abuse? Or criminal behaviour? It's potentially a good idea, but they should have thought it through a bit more before. EDIT: The company selling the tests have a lot of product available. (http://www.mhs.com/Education.aspx http://www.mhs.com/Education.aspx) EDIT: I might be annoyed if schools are buying these tests instead of textbooks.
- genwin 13y ago
  Per the school's zero tolerance policy, students who reveal alcohol or drug use are expelled at no risk to the school. I don't agree with their method but it is pretty simple.
  - grecy 13y ago
    Wow. Are the students told that beforehand? I think a shocking consequence is students will now feel unsafe telling the truth about troubling events (abuse, etc.)
    - genwin 13y ago
      > Are the students told that beforehand? That would defeat the purpose of the survey. I guess if there's a time for someone to learn the hard way when to keep private info private, high school is better than later.
      - grecy 13y ago
        > I guess if there's a time for someone to learn the hard way when to keep private info private, high school is better than later. Does that include crimes against minors?
    - ihsw 13y ago
      > students will now feel unsafe telling the truth about troubling events That's the idea -- helping those students is a significant and easily ignored cost center.
danbruc 13y ago
Does this kind of survey make any sense? Why should somebody answer honestly if the survey is not anonymous and you don't want to admit something? If you want to admit something, such an survey may at best catalyze it. Therefore I would expect that the result of such an survey just does not reflect reality. You could cross check answers of a well designed survey to get an indication if the answers are honest or not but this does not nearly bring the result close to an anonymous but more honestly answered survey.
- TeMPOraL 13y ago
  Exactly. So many comments here assume that students wouldn't lie on this survey, which I think is an ridiculous assumption. From my experience, students are afraid to be overly honest on anonymous feedback surveys just because of the possibility teacher will recognize the handwriting. There's no way they would fill in truthfully a non-anonymous survey that could get them in a world of trouble.
diminoten 13y ago
I wonder if, legally, kids have identical Constitutional rights. They certainly don't have the 4th (not in the sense that an adult has it), for example, and I wonder if Juvenile courts have to give the 6th.
- herge 13y ago
  The first amendment of the US constitution is curtailed in schools in specific instances: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_amendment_to_the_united_states_constitution#School_speech http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_amendment_to_the_united_s...
coldcode 13y ago
Why are questions asked of students copyrighted so as to not allow any visibility to parents? If I had a child required to answer potentially incriminating questions at school I would want public scrutiny, otherwise this becomes a kind of secret inquisition.
- danso 13y ago
  The purported reason is because the survey was designed by a private company who claims the survey to be their intellectual property. Similarly, if a school screened a controversial film, a parent could not ask the school for a copy of said film, because the school doesn't own the intellectual rights to it. This is a microcosm of what happens when public institutions, whose records and dealings are considered to be part of the public record, uses private contractors. Other public instituions have used this to deny access to what is usually a citizen's right to know: e.g. public worker salaries being maintained by a private payroll company.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    For a while, this included the text of some laws! My understanding is that got overturned, though (thank goodness).
    - rayiner 13y ago
      It was not the text of some laws. It was engineering standards incorporated into certain building codes. The laws were like: "buildings shall follow ASME x.y.z" (to use a software analogy, it would be like requiring something to conform to POSIX, a standard the text of which is not freely published).
      - chopsueyar 13y ago
        Eh. Here is a freely published copy of the POSIX standard: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ Regarding the "text of some laws", there was actually a story on HN about the city of the District of Columbia asserting copyright to their laws and making it only available via a private company: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/31/ignorance-of-dcs-copyrighted-laws-can-be-costly/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/31/ignorance-of... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5251797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5251797
jliechti1 13y ago
Alumni here. Wow, this has been circulating among my Facebook friends and I saw the article when it came out. Did not expect to see it on the front page of HN. I'll try to add a little more information. The article mentions it briefly, but suicide has become a big issue in Batavia[0]. I know of at least the first 2 suicides - two friends (or possibly boyfriend/girlfriend, can't say for sure), roughly 6 months apart. These events were completely unprecedented and were a shock to the quiet, safe, middle-class town. Major props to Dryden for standing up to the this. Although I never had him for a teacher when I was in school, many of my friends were influenced by him. I'll ask some friends if they remember any of the survey questions, and post them here if I can. Also, I look forward to nsxwolf's (another Batavian!) notes from the city council meeting. [0]: Read a little more here: http://www.kcchronicle.com/mobile/article.xml/articles/2013/02/05/r_aqjqk0xjray1vckqfo0mog/index.xml http://www.kcchronicle.com/mobile/article.xml/articles/2013/...
ams6110 13y ago
Every such survey that has been given to my kids was always preceeded by a notice sent home, including opt-out instructions if the parent did not wish the student to participate. When I was in school, I know a fair number of kids just filled in bubbles at random on these things anyway.
danbmil99 13y ago
Assuming he's a public school teacher, he's very unlikely to be fired over this, or anything.
- danbmil99 13y ago
  More like Reddit to be downvoted for the truth. Public School teachers in the USA generally have very good job protection, it's a fact. You can say it's fine, there's good reason for it (for instance perhaps in this case), but why downvote a fact?
cpeterso 13y ago
> The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state. What are "social-emotional learning standards"??
- theorique 13y ago
  Edu-babble word for "age-specific maturity" and similar concepts. i.e. does the child behave with typical maturity for a child of his age?
rayiner 13y ago
The teacher should be in hot water for teaching the 5th amendment incorrectly. From the text of the amendment: "No person shall be... compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..." The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, as a witness, in a way that might incriminate oneself. Relatedly, it excludes self-incriminating statements in certain circumstances from evidence in criminal cases. While the 5th amendment has been interpreted to apply to many different proceedings (not just criminal cases, as in the text of the amendment), there must be some sort of proceeding of a disciplinary nature. If the survey results were not shared with the police or intended to be used in a criminal case, it's quite likely not the case that the 5th amendment was implicated at all.
- darkarmani 13y ago
  That's silly. If the 5th amendment isn't needed here then it is simply overkill. You still have the right to not incriminate oneself. They only way you are correct is if they offered a waiver of immunity for any confessed crimes. This is how they can compel you to speak in front of grand juries. For certain crimes, school officials are required to report them to the police.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    > You still have the right to not incriminate oneself. No, you have the right not to testify information that would incriminate you in a proceeding. It's a narrower right than you're making it out to be.
    - cecilpl 13y ago
      You also have the right not to tell the principal of your high school about all the drugs you're doing.
    - darkarmani 13y ago
      So you are required to tell your school officials everything you've ever done wrong? The 5th amendment offers protection in places where you are otherwise legally required to testify, but it's obvious you don't need that additional protection in places where you aren't legally compelled to testify. But it is a useful protection when you don't know if you are required to testify -- knowing that you have the 5th means you no longer need to know if you are being compelled or not.
ignostic 13y ago
While I'm sure the survey was (probably) administered with the best of intentions, it was poorly anonymized and thus both risky and completely invalid.
downandout 13y ago
The teacher was absolutely correct to warn these kids, and it's absurd that the district would to try to punish him over it. No good things can come from answering questions like this on a personally identifiable survey. The school even stated that the intent was to identify and help at-risk students - meaning the information was going to be reviewed, discussed by and disclosed to staff, put in the students' files, and acted upon. There is absolutely nothing that would stop this survey from making it to college admissions offices, law enforcement, parents, etc. The fact that the district wouldn't have instructed all teachers to notify students of the potential ramifications of answering such questions is a big problem. If any of the data later has a negative impact on someone's child, the district may have some legal liability. This teacher should actually be rewarded potentially shielding the district from a lawsuit.
sk5t 13y ago
I should like to see the administrator who initiated disciplinary proceedings against this teacher tried and convicted for treason.
- kybernetikos 13y ago
  [copied from above, sorry for posting in the wrong place] Abuse of treason convictions had occurred so much in England that the framers specifically defined it in the constitution (apparently the only crime to get such a treatment). "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." I don't necessarily think they were right on everything, but they were right on this. You really don't want to live in a state where Treason is an accusation thrown around lightly.
- unimpressive 13y ago
  No.
- mikeash 13y ago
  In what way could this possibly qualify as "treason"?
maxcan 13y ago
The school is also trying to teach students a valuable civics lesson: your rights are minimal and the principle function of the state is the furtherance of the careers of the bureaucrats who compose the state. Anything that inconveniences them will be met with all the power they can muster.
- kybernetikos 13y ago
  Abuse of treason convictions had occurred so much in England that the framers specifically defined it in the constitution (apparently the only crime to get such a treatment). "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." I don't necessarily think they were right on everything, but they were right on this. You really don't want to live in a state where Treason is an accusation thrown around lightly.
  - emiliobumachar 13y ago
    You meant to reply to sk5t's comment, did you not? Your explanation seems to make much more sense as a reply to that than to your parent.
    - kybernetikos 13y ago
      Weird. Thanks for pointing that out. Not sure how I ended up doing that. I'll copy it to the right place, but sadly it's too late to delete it here.
bx_ 13y ago
Off-topic, but how does it work that when I load that site I get an advertisement for The Lorax (http://i.imgur.com/y6eke4T.jpg http://i.imgur.com/y6eke4T.jpg), a character with whom John Dryden happens to share several key features? I understand showing ads by keyword (the alcohol ad as alcohol is mentioned in the article several times...) but facial similarity based advertising?! I'm speechless.
- logn 13y ago
  Maybe a coincidence? There's also mention of 'kids', 'school', 'students', etc. However, I'd guess the technology is there to do facial recognition... not sure how that's effective for any advertiser's end goals though... except maybe certain cases of demographics, like if you are on a body building website then you show ads that have people with big necks.
  - bx_ 13y ago
    If it's coincidence, it's an incredible one. I reloaded the site two more times, and got The Lorax repeatedly. If it's not coincidence, am I supposed to look at Mr. Dryden and think "I want to see The Lorax... oh how convenient! There it is! click"?
- viraptor 13y ago
  Off topic off topic: i thought he's more like the Big Lebowski dude, especially with the "I'm trying to refocus people's attention, calm down" ending. If Netflix recommended that, I'd be really impressed.
venomsnake 13y ago
If only we could remove these pesky kids from the school ... then we could have perfect teaching environment. Perfect lessons with no delay in empty classes. The school will hum like a well tuned V8. But with their rights, troubles and teenage rebellion - how dare they disrupt the perfect teaching set up by bureaucracy by being themselves. The fact that a survey is needed means that the system has already failed the students. And the idea of it being non anonymous means that the persons responsible have no idea at all how to deal with children. The school is there to guide the young ones during one very hard period in a person's life. It should be relationship based on trust not intimidation. But instead we get administrators that think of themselves as sheriffs that must be tough on crime. But the mantra is protect the children (which we do for ourselves) and not do something good for the children.
superdude 13y ago
"Superintendent Jack Barshinger said teacher support for doing a survey grew after several suicides by students in recent years. Students and staff typically said they had no idea those teens were in distress. 'We can't help them if we aren't aware of their needs,' Barshinger said." Honest question: Could a survey to high school students truly help suicidal teens?
- prawks 13y ago
  I can't imagine suicidal teens would be any more likely to admit to suicidal thoughts on a survey with their name on it than they would a counselor/parent/teacher/etc.
josscrowcroft 13y ago
Oh America.
TeMPOraL 13y ago
There is no way this survey could have worked anyway. How do they expect that kids - who know their school and parents are against them drinking or using drugs - answer questions truthfully on a non-anonymous survey? The only people I can imagine who would not lie on this survey are kids who care more about the truth than possible consequences to them and kids with an IQ of a potato. And I think the former ones are not the trouble kids the school is looking for.
Fuxy 13y ago
Since when is advising people of their rights a punishable offense? Talk about double standards America. "Here's your rights...don't even think about using them or we will punish you!" And the most revolting of all the school board actually think this is ok? I wouldn't want these people training my dog let alone teaching my children.
- polymatter 13y ago
  see (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification). Knowledge of its existence makes you unsuitable for jury service (in some jurisdictions).
tss20147 13y ago
He had two obligations, his moral obligations to his students and his obligation as a school system employee, which were in conflict. He choose his moral obligation to his students, but in doing so violated his obligation as a school system employee. The school system did not ask him to perform anything illegal or definitively immoral. It is therefore correct for the school system to punish him for this violation.
- PeterisP 13y ago
  If the school system asked him to do something, anything that is in conflict with his moral obligations to students - as you claim - then it DID ask him to perform something immoral.
  - tss20147 13y ago
    I should have been clearer. From his point of view he had a moral obligation to his students. I actually don't think he did. The school system should be following a combination of legal code and the generally accepted morals of the community they represent. Notification was provided to parents. Parents could opt out and there was no general movement by parents to prevent the survey. The school therefore didn't ask him to do anything which is "definitively immoral". People including myself have to make judgements like this at different times during their career. I have worked for companies which have asked me to perform actions which I personally have found against my moral code but which aren't illegal and may not be considered immoral by society as a whole. Sometimes I have done them and other times I have not. It has depended on how large of a violation of my own moral code I though it was. Anytime I have refused I have fully expected and received negative reactions from my employer. To actively interfere with the goals or requests of your employer and not expect a negative reaction is just idiotic.
  - tss20147 13y ago
    I should have been clearer. From his point of view he had a moral obligation to his students. I actually don't think he did. The school system should be following a combination of legal code and the generally accepted morals of the community they represent. Notification was provided to parents. Parents could opt out and there was no general movement by parents to prevent the survey. The school therefore didn't ask him to do anything which is "definitively immoral". People including myself have to make judgements like this at different times during their career. I have worked for companies which have asked me to perform actions which I personally have found against my moral code but which aren't illegal and may not be considered immoral by society as a whole. Sometimes I have done them and other times I have not. It has depended on how large of a violation of my own moral code I though it was. Anytime I have refused I have fully expected and received negative reactions from my employer. To actively interfere with the goals or requests of your employer and not expect a negative reaction is just idiotic.
Ihmahr 13y ago
This is what happens to good people.
mcallan83 13y ago
I work in Batavia and it was nice to see this make the front page of Hacker News. Just wanted to point out that the hearing taking place tonight will probably be recorded by BATV (http://batv.us/ http://batv.us/) and available to stream later in the week. Once the recording is posted, I will update with a direct link.
- mcallan83 13y ago
  I am told the video of tonight's hearing will be put up on YouTube on Thursday at https://www.youtube.com/user/BATV1017 https://www.youtube.com/user/BATV1017. If I hear anything else, I will post here.
donjigweed 13y ago
The dude abides
dmourati 13y ago
All I could think of was Tron Carter: "I pleads the fizivth": http://www.comedycentral.com/video-clips/3vk26x/chappelle-s-show-tron-carter-s-law---order http://www.comedycentral.com/video-clips/3vk26x/chappelle-s-...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
patrickmay 13y ago
I'm rather surprised that not one student published a picture of the survey from a cell phone.
JoeKM 13y ago
The origins of this survey need to be audited and investigated. Some school districts are notoriously greedy and only care about their bottom-line: test scores. The higher scores, the more money (for the district and for their salaries). I'm sure they correlated drug habits with low test scores, and sought to extradite delinquents from their schools. Perhaps even a precursor to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline

414 points by nsxwolf 13y ago

Social research 101: any non-anonymous questionnaire asking sensitive questions is totally useless. Social studies freshman would get F for that. Regardless of 5th amendment issues... how could anyone pay for that is beyond me - that school is wasting taxpayers money.

tokenadult 13y ago

"But John Dryden said he's not the point. He wants people to focus on the issue he raised: Whether school officials considered that students could incriminate themselves with their answers to the survey that included questions about drug and alcohol use." To me, that sounds like an unusually thoughtful social studies teacher. He is relating the general concepts that he is hired to teach his students to a real-world situation facing the students, and that sounds like good teaching to me. He ought to get a promotion or a raise, based only on this news about his public behavior in the classroom. It is, of course, sometimes appropriate for schools to distribute surveys to minor students in their care on which there may be questions about student behavior that may be embarrassing or illegal. But the teacher, based on the report here, is just asking his students to think about their lessons and what those lessons mean, not trying to undermine the survey process. "But Dryden doesn't want this seen as him vs. the administrators. He said he knows they were acting in what they thought was the best interests of the students. "'These are good, professional, smart people on the other side who want to do what is right by kids,' he said. "He would rather focus the discussion on the survey. "'I have asked people (the supporters) to talk about the survey. I think I am a sideshow,' he said. 'This (the survey) was rushed and it wasn't vetted.' "'I'm not a martyr,' he said. 'I'm trying to refocus people's attentions. Calm down.'"

nsxwolf 13y ago
I really want to understand this "proprietary information" excuse the school is using to justify not releasing the survey. Certainly the kids can go home and tell their parents what they saw (and some have). The kids didn't sign an NDA, they saw it, so why can't we see it? This story is happening in my town. There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending.
- TallGuyShort 13y ago
  Unless it's well-covered by other sources, I would kindly ask you to blog your observations and share them with us :)
  - nsxwolf 13y ago
    I certainly will.
    - guiambros 13y ago
      Thanks in advance for reporting back! Saving the thread here, to read it later.. As the teacher said, the focus should be on the survey, not his acts. Of course, provided that he doesn't suffer any unfair and ridiculous disciplinary actions.
    - quantumpotato_ 13y ago
      Thank you! Looking forward to it.
    - bx_ 13y ago
      Agreed -- would love to know how this goes!
- btilly 13y ago
  My guess is that the survey was bought from a private company on a contract that says it is that company's property and not to be shared. Therefore if the school released the form, they could be sued by said private company both for violating copyright and contract. (And the company would want that because they want to resell the survey to other schools.) Stupid, yes. But I think it is likely that the school has a real legal barrier to sharing the survey.
  - ojbyrne 13y ago
    It basically says that in the article. It's not completely unequivocal, but close.
  - 13y ago
__--__ 13y ago
He sounds a lot like my social studies teacher in high school. He was the best teacher I ever had because he was a complete, utter bastard. He didn't care if you had the right answer, you had to back it up with facts. He gave us 5 page papers to do every night and a 10 page research paper every semester. Both of those things were crucial to my development of critical thought and being able to communicate it, something nobody else bothered to teach, even in college. He was fired a few years after I graduated. Which wasn't surprising - he constantly pissed off the school board and other teachers. Dryden sounds a lot more politic than my teacher was.

DanBC 13y ago

Did they risk manage this survey? What do they do if a student reveals an alcohol problem? Or sexual abuse? Or criminal behaviour? It's potentially a good idea, but they should have thought it through a bit more before. EDIT: The company selling the tests have a lot of product available. (http://www.mhs.com/Education.aspx http://www.mhs.com/Education.aspx) EDIT: I might be annoyed if schools are buying these tests instead of textbooks.

genwin 13y ago
Per the school's zero tolerance policy, students who reveal alcohol or drug use are expelled at no risk to the school. I don't agree with their method but it is pretty simple.
- grecy 13y ago
  Wow. Are the students told that beforehand? I think a shocking consequence is students will now feel unsafe telling the truth about troubling events (abuse, etc.)
  - genwin 13y ago
    > Are the students told that beforehand? That would defeat the purpose of the survey. I guess if there's a time for someone to learn the hard way when to keep private info private, high school is better than later.
    - grecy 13y ago
      > I guess if there's a time for someone to learn the hard way when to keep private info private, high school is better than later. Does that include crimes against minors?
  - ihsw 13y ago
    > students will now feel unsafe telling the truth about troubling events That's the idea -- helping those students is a significant and easily ignored cost center.

danbruc 13y ago

Does this kind of survey make any sense? Why should somebody answer honestly if the survey is not anonymous and you don't want to admit something? If you want to admit something, such an survey may at best catalyze it. Therefore I would expect that the result of such an survey just does not reflect reality. You could cross check answers of a well designed survey to get an indication if the answers are honest or not but this does not nearly bring the result close to an anonymous but more honestly answered survey.

TeMPOraL 13y ago
Exactly. So many comments here assume that students wouldn't lie on this survey, which I think is an ridiculous assumption. From my experience, students are afraid to be overly honest on anonymous feedback surveys just because of the possibility teacher will recognize the handwriting. There's no way they would fill in truthfully a non-anonymous survey that could get them in a world of trouble.

diminoten 13y ago

I wonder if, legally, kids have identical Constitutional rights. They certainly don't have the 4th (not in the sense that an adult has it), for example, and I wonder if Juvenile courts have to give the 6th.

herge 13y ago
The first amendment of the US constitution is curtailed in schools in specific instances: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_amendment_to_the_united_states_constitution#School_speech http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_amendment_to_the_united_s...

coldcode 13y ago

Why are questions asked of students copyrighted so as to not allow any visibility to parents? If I had a child required to answer potentially incriminating questions at school I would want public scrutiny, otherwise this becomes a kind of secret inquisition.

danso 13y ago
The purported reason is because the survey was designed by a private company who claims the survey to be their intellectual property. Similarly, if a school screened a controversial film, a parent could not ask the school for a copy of said film, because the school doesn't own the intellectual rights to it. This is a microcosm of what happens when public institutions, whose records and dealings are considered to be part of the public record, uses private contractors. Other public instituions have used this to deny access to what is usually a citizen's right to know: e.g. public worker salaries being maintained by a private payroll company.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  For a while, this included the text of some laws! My understanding is that got overturned, though (thank goodness).
  - rayiner 13y ago
    It was not the text of some laws. It was engineering standards incorporated into certain building codes. The laws were like: "buildings shall follow ASME x.y.z" (to use a software analogy, it would be like requiring something to conform to POSIX, a standard the text of which is not freely published).
    - chopsueyar 13y ago
      Eh. Here is a freely published copy of the POSIX standard: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ Regarding the "text of some laws", there was actually a story on HN about the city of the District of Columbia asserting copyright to their laws and making it only available via a private company: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/31/ignorance-of-dcs-copyrighted-laws-can-be-costly/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/31/ignorance-of... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5251797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5251797

jliechti1 13y ago

Alumni here. Wow, this has been circulating among my Facebook friends and I saw the article when it came out. Did not expect to see it on the front page of HN. I'll try to add a little more information. The article mentions it briefly, but suicide has become a big issue in Batavia[0]. I know of at least the first 2 suicides - two friends (or possibly boyfriend/girlfriend, can't say for sure), roughly 6 months apart. These events were completely unprecedented and were a shock to the quiet, safe, middle-class town. Major props to Dryden for standing up to the this. Although I never had him for a teacher when I was in school, many of my friends were influenced by him. I'll ask some friends if they remember any of the survey questions, and post them here if I can. Also, I look forward to nsxwolf's (another Batavian!) notes from the city council meeting. [0]: Read a little more here: http://www.kcchronicle.com/mobile/article.xml/articles/2013/02/05/r_aqjqk0xjray1vckqfo0mog/index.xml http://www.kcchronicle.com/mobile/article.xml/articles/2013/...

ams6110 13y ago

Every such survey that has been given to my kids was always preceeded by a notice sent home, including opt-out instructions if the parent did not wish the student to participate. When I was in school, I know a fair number of kids just filled in bubbles at random on these things anyway.

danbmil99 13y ago

Assuming he's a public school teacher, he's very unlikely to be fired over this, or anything.

danbmil99 13y ago
More like Reddit to be downvoted for the truth. Public School teachers in the USA generally have very good job protection, it's a fact. You can say it's fine, there's good reason for it (for instance perhaps in this case), but why downvote a fact?

cpeterso 13y ago

> The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state. What are "social-emotional learning standards"??

theorique 13y ago
Edu-babble word for "age-specific maturity" and similar concepts. i.e. does the child behave with typical maturity for a child of his age?

rayiner 13y ago

The teacher should be in hot water for teaching the 5th amendment incorrectly. From the text of the amendment: "No person shall be... compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..." The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, as a witness, in a way that might incriminate oneself. Relatedly, it excludes self-incriminating statements in certain circumstances from evidence in criminal cases. While the 5th amendment has been interpreted to apply to many different proceedings (not just criminal cases, as in the text of the amendment), there must be some sort of proceeding of a disciplinary nature. If the survey results were not shared with the police or intended to be used in a criminal case, it's quite likely not the case that the 5th amendment was implicated at all.

darkarmani 13y ago
That's silly. If the 5th amendment isn't needed here then it is simply overkill. You still have the right to not incriminate oneself. They only way you are correct is if they offered a waiver of immunity for any confessed crimes. This is how they can compel you to speak in front of grand juries. For certain crimes, school officials are required to report them to the police.
- rayiner 13y ago
  > You still have the right to not incriminate oneself. No, you have the right not to testify information that would incriminate you in a proceeding. It's a narrower right than you're making it out to be.
  - cecilpl 13y ago
    You also have the right not to tell the principal of your high school about all the drugs you're doing.
  - darkarmani 13y ago
    So you are required to tell your school officials everything you've ever done wrong? The 5th amendment offers protection in places where you are otherwise legally required to testify, but it's obvious you don't need that additional protection in places where you aren't legally compelled to testify. But it is a useful protection when you don't know if you are required to testify -- knowing that you have the 5th means you no longer need to know if you are being compelled or not.

ignostic 13y ago

While I'm sure the survey was (probably) administered with the best of intentions, it was poorly anonymized and thus both risky and completely invalid.

downandout 13y ago

The teacher was absolutely correct to warn these kids, and it's absurd that the district would to try to punish him over it. No good things can come from answering questions like this on a personally identifiable survey. The school even stated that the intent was to identify and help at-risk students - meaning the information was going to be reviewed, discussed by and disclosed to staff, put in the students' files, and acted upon. There is absolutely nothing that would stop this survey from making it to college admissions offices, law enforcement, parents, etc. The fact that the district wouldn't have instructed all teachers to notify students of the potential ramifications of answering such questions is a big problem. If any of the data later has a negative impact on someone's child, the district may have some legal liability. This teacher should actually be rewarded potentially shielding the district from a lawsuit.

sk5t 13y ago

I should like to see the administrator who initiated disciplinary proceedings against this teacher tried and convicted for treason.

kybernetikos 13y ago
[copied from above, sorry for posting in the wrong place] Abuse of treason convictions had occurred so much in England that the framers specifically defined it in the constitution (apparently the only crime to get such a treatment). "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." I don't necessarily think they were right on everything, but they were right on this. You really don't want to live in a state where Treason is an accusation thrown around lightly.
unimpressive 13y ago
No.
mikeash 13y ago
In what way could this possibly qualify as "treason"?

maxcan 13y ago

The school is also trying to teach students a valuable civics lesson: your rights are minimal and the principle function of the state is the furtherance of the careers of the bureaucrats who compose the state. Anything that inconveniences them will be met with all the power they can muster.

kybernetikos 13y ago
Abuse of treason convictions had occurred so much in England that the framers specifically defined it in the constitution (apparently the only crime to get such a treatment). "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." I don't necessarily think they were right on everything, but they were right on this. You really don't want to live in a state where Treason is an accusation thrown around lightly.
- emiliobumachar 13y ago
  You meant to reply to sk5t's comment, did you not? Your explanation seems to make much more sense as a reply to that than to your parent.
  - kybernetikos 13y ago
    Weird. Thanks for pointing that out. Not sure how I ended up doing that. I'll copy it to the right place, but sadly it's too late to delete it here.

bx_ 13y ago

Off-topic, but how does it work that when I load that site I get an advertisement for The Lorax (http://i.imgur.com/y6eke4T.jpg http://i.imgur.com/y6eke4T.jpg), a character with whom John Dryden happens to share several key features? I understand showing ads by keyword (the alcohol ad as alcohol is mentioned in the article several times...) but facial similarity based advertising?! I'm speechless.

logn 13y ago
Maybe a coincidence? There's also mention of 'kids', 'school', 'students', etc. However, I'd guess the technology is there to do facial recognition... not sure how that's effective for any advertiser's end goals though... except maybe certain cases of demographics, like if you are on a body building website then you show ads that have people with big necks.
- bx_ 13y ago
  If it's coincidence, it's an incredible one. I reloaded the site two more times, and got The Lorax repeatedly. If it's not coincidence, am I supposed to look at Mr. Dryden and think "I want to see The Lorax... oh how convenient! There it is! click"?
viraptor 13y ago
Off topic off topic: i thought he's more like the Big Lebowski dude, especially with the "I'm trying to refocus people's attention, calm down" ending. If Netflix recommended that, I'd be really impressed.

venomsnake 13y ago

If only we could remove these pesky kids from the school ... then we could have perfect teaching environment. Perfect lessons with no delay in empty classes. The school will hum like a well tuned V8. But with their rights, troubles and teenage rebellion - how dare they disrupt the perfect teaching set up by bureaucracy by being themselves. The fact that a survey is needed means that the system has already failed the students. And the idea of it being non anonymous means that the persons responsible have no idea at all how to deal with children. The school is there to guide the young ones during one very hard period in a person's life. It should be relationship based on trust not intimidation. But instead we get administrators that think of themselves as sheriffs that must be tough on crime. But the mantra is protect the children (which we do for ourselves) and not do something good for the children.

superdude 13y ago

"Superintendent Jack Barshinger said teacher support for doing a survey grew after several suicides by students in recent years. Students and staff typically said they had no idea those teens were in distress. 'We can't help them if we aren't aware of their needs,' Barshinger said." Honest question: Could a survey to high school students truly help suicidal teens?

prawks 13y ago
I can't imagine suicidal teens would be any more likely to admit to suicidal thoughts on a survey with their name on it than they would a counselor/parent/teacher/etc.

josscrowcroft 13y ago

Oh America.

TeMPOraL 13y ago

There is no way this survey could have worked anyway. How do they expect that kids - who know their school and parents are against them drinking or using drugs - answer questions truthfully on a non-anonymous survey? The only people I can imagine who would not lie on this survey are kids who care more about the truth than possible consequences to them and kids with an IQ of a potato. And I think the former ones are not the trouble kids the school is looking for.

Fuxy 13y ago

Since when is advising people of their rights a punishable offense? Talk about double standards America. "Here's your rights...don't even think about using them or we will punish you!" And the most revolting of all the school board actually think this is ok? I wouldn't want these people training my dog let alone teaching my children.

polymatter 13y ago
see (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification). Knowledge of its existence makes you unsuitable for jury service (in some jurisdictions).

tss20147 13y ago

He had two obligations, his moral obligations to his students and his obligation as a school system employee, which were in conflict. He choose his moral obligation to his students, but in doing so violated his obligation as a school system employee. The school system did not ask him to perform anything illegal or definitively immoral. It is therefore correct for the school system to punish him for this violation.

PeterisP 13y ago
If the school system asked him to do something, anything that is in conflict with his moral obligations to students - as you claim - then it DID ask him to perform something immoral.
- tss20147 13y ago
  I should have been clearer. From his point of view he had a moral obligation to his students. I actually don't think he did. The school system should be following a combination of legal code and the generally accepted morals of the community they represent. Notification was provided to parents. Parents could opt out and there was no general movement by parents to prevent the survey. The school therefore didn't ask him to do anything which is "definitively immoral". People including myself have to make judgements like this at different times during their career. I have worked for companies which have asked me to perform actions which I personally have found against my moral code but which aren't illegal and may not be considered immoral by society as a whole. Sometimes I have done them and other times I have not. It has depended on how large of a violation of my own moral code I though it was. Anytime I have refused I have fully expected and received negative reactions from my employer. To actively interfere with the goals or requests of your employer and not expect a negative reaction is just idiotic.
- tss20147 13y ago
  I should have been clearer. From his point of view he had a moral obligation to his students. I actually don't think he did. The school system should be following a combination of legal code and the generally accepted morals of the community they represent. Notification was provided to parents. Parents could opt out and there was no general movement by parents to prevent the survey. The school therefore didn't ask him to do anything which is "definitively immoral". People including myself have to make judgements like this at different times during their career. I have worked for companies which have asked me to perform actions which I personally have found against my moral code but which aren't illegal and may not be considered immoral by society as a whole. Sometimes I have done them and other times I have not. It has depended on how large of a violation of my own moral code I though it was. Anytime I have refused I have fully expected and received negative reactions from my employer. To actively interfere with the goals or requests of your employer and not expect a negative reaction is just idiotic.

Ihmahr 13y ago

This is what happens to good people.

mcallan83 13y ago

I work in Batavia and it was nice to see this make the front page of Hacker News. Just wanted to point out that the hearing taking place tonight will probably be recorded by BATV (http://batv.us/ http://batv.us/) and available to stream later in the week. Once the recording is posted, I will update with a direct link.

mcallan83 13y ago
I am told the video of tonight's hearing will be put up on YouTube on Thursday at https://www.youtube.com/user/BATV1017 https://www.youtube.com/user/BATV1017. If I hear anything else, I will post here.

donjigweed 13y ago

The dude abides

dmourati 13y ago

All I could think of was Tron Carter: "I pleads the fizivth": http://www.comedycentral.com/video-clips/3vk26x/chappelle-s-show-tron-carter-s-law---order http://www.comedycentral.com/video-clips/3vk26x/chappelle-s-...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

patrickmay 13y ago

I'm rather surprised that not one student published a picture of the survey from a cell phone.

JoeKM 13y ago

The origins of this survey need to be audited and investigated. Some school districts are notoriously greedy and only care about their bottom-line: test scores. The higher scores, the more money (for the district and for their salaries). I'm sure they correlated drug habits with low test scores, and sought to extradite delinquents from their schools. Perhaps even a precursor to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline