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> Apparently the main part of Pakistan relevant to Afghanistan is the 'tribal regions' mostly not governed by the rest of Pakistan. There your claims of a "mix"

by neebz 13y ago

> Apparently the main part of Pakistan relevant to Afghanistan is the 'tribal regions' mostly not governed by the rest of Pakistan. There your claims of a "mix" seem to be not correct. They do. The 'tribal regions' are known 'tribal' for a reason. They are dominated by tribes, who have there own traditions & rivalry. They have affiliations with Taliban because of Pashtun traditions. This affiliation goes back even before the Pakistan came into being. Islam is a cultural part of this region but not the sole driving force. They used poppy/heroine for ages but Islam strictly prohibits using drugs. So yet another sample where your nice little narrative doesn't fit. > Further, much of the problem the US has had with Pakistan is from the strong role of Islam there and in Afghanistan erm ..US played an important role during the Afghan-Russia war. They actually pumped up the Jihadist sentiment at that time. Religion in the grand scheme has just been a tool to achieve interest. > For reasons of religion, culture, domestic politics, and foreign policy, Pakistan has been mostly on the side of the Taliban, that is, wants to dominate Afghanistan. Only foreign policy. Pakistan cannot afford to fight with neighbors on both sides of border. That's the sole reason Pakistan wants to friend whoever comes into power in Afghanistan (apparently the notorious double-game Pak army has been playing with US is because once US goes back they would have to deal with Taliban ..and they want to be in there good books). Pakistan has also been super-friendly with China but no religion, culture, domestic politics play any role in that. It's only foreign policy. > My comments about Islam were focused on Afghanistan. The comments also apply a lot to Iran and Iraq You do know Iraq fought war with Saudia Arabia ..the be and end all of all things Islam ? You do know how things were in Iran before the revolution ? If you start looking things from an economics-perspective then everything fits in place. There are some nut-jobs who leave everything to go and fight for the sake of religion but the majority of the population doesn't do that. They just want good food and good living style regardless of whose in power. Iranian revolution can be traced back to that as well. > But the main reason for the formation of Pakistan was just Islam -- they wanted an Islamic country. Net, the main culture in Pakistan is just Islam. then how come there hasn't been any Islamic governing system in Pakistan since the creation? There are gazillion open things in this country which are against the very premise of Islam yet no one talks about that. Pakistan wasn't created by an imam or cleric. The most ironic thing (and I would suggest you should go and study that) is that creation of Pakistan was opposed by virtually every single cleric at that time. Founder of Pakistan (Jinnah) lead a very secular life & wasn't a fan-favourite of Islamic imams at that time. Pakistan was created because Muslims were living a second-class life in all of India. Again economic reasons. > The main interest in this tread is what the heck is the US going to do about Afghanistan and why? The main content of why is just the role of Islam. That I agree. But that is not something which you can use as a reason to justify how things work in every Muslim country out there. US invaded Afghanistan at a time when they had right-wing extremists in power. So obviously they'll have to deal with problems in the same domain. You don't need to create grand conclusions out of it.

graycat 13y ago
I can't compete with you on details of Pakistan! But, somehow while supposedly trying to help the US bring peace to Afghanistan, Bin Laden lived in a relatively large and nice house for some years about a good golf shot from the Pakistan army college. And no one knew he was there? And when President Clinton fired cruise missiles at the Bin Laden training camp in Afghanistan, US Secretary of State Albright (also known as Half-bright) informed the Pakistan government since the missiles would have to fly over Pakistan territory. Then somehow Half-bright's information made it to Bin Laden who was well out of the area when the missiles arrived. Of course Islam is not all there is to it, not in Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, or even Afghanistan. And clearly economics is also important. But my point was about 'culture'. Or just why have US efforts to create democracy in Afghanistan failed? My answer, culture: There's no real basis for democracy in Afghanistan culture. Does this mean that Afghanistan has no culture? No, they do. They have a strong culture, one that runs nearly everything, Islam. Get rid of Islam and they don't have much except maybe a few goats, some poppies, some rusty AK-47s. So, they don't get rid of Islam. Not all of Islam is against democracy, but the culture in Afghanistan is Islam with no foundation for democracy. This thread (sorry about the times I typed 'tread' instead) has mentioned that in part the Taliban act like the Mafia in Italy and at times parts of the US. That's some of what I thought, and, yes, it's not from Islam. But the main reason for a Mafia is that there is no good alternative system of police and government. With a good system of police, when a Mafia guy comes to a store owner and asks for a monthly payment, the store owner can go to the police who will be waiting when the Mafia guy comes and accepts the money and then ... lock up the Mafia guy for a long time. But this system needs a good culture to support such good police and, thus, good police to protect the citizens. In contrast, all Afghanistan has in culture is just Islam; Islam doesn't provide good support of police that support the citizens; there's no other culture; so the Taliban get to use Mafia tactics. Neither the Taliban nor the villagers believe that a democracy should be better. So, Islam and Mafia tactics are what's there. It's not that Islam is against good police protection; it's mostly just that Islam doesn't provide good police protection, and in Afghanistan Islam is essentially all the culture. So, no good police protection. And it's not that an Islamic country can't have good police protection; I can believe that some Islamic countries have some very strong police. But in Afghanistan, about all there is is Islam and next to nothing about good police or democracy. And the Islamic clerics? It's not in their interest to see the growth of strong, secular institutions such as good police. So, again, no good police force can grow up. Or Islamic Sharia law: Try to implement something descended from Napoleonic law or British Common law, etc., and, in a country that has essentially only Islam, many Muslims will keep asking for Sharia law. So, get a 500 year old legal system. Education? Try to set up a 21st century, or 20th century, education system, and, in a country that has essentially only Islam, a lot of Muslims will insist on Islamic education instead. Halt: Again out of date by 500 years. Look, if Islam were only religion, then it would be much less of a road block to progress in Afghanistan. Instead, Islam is running nearly everything there and, thus, is able to block nearly any change or progress. A big point about Islam for people in the US is that Islam is not just religion but is also how to dress, what to eat, how to run a marriage, education, architecture, system of laws, government, etc. So, in the less developed Islamic countries, Islam is a roadblock to change. E.g., in Iraq, there are two sides to Islam, the Shiites and the Sunnis. So, since they have little more important in their lives than just their religion, they fight. They would just rather have a civil war than get on with pumping oil and living a life of milk and honey. They did that already in Europe, been there, done that, got the T-shirt, and had the rivers running red for hundreds of years from religious wars. Finally they learned: Have politics and government separate from and largely independent of religion; have freedom of religion; and don't fight over religion. Done. When the Muslims in, say, Iraq learn that lesson, they will be ahead some hundreds of years.

by neebz 13y ago

graycat 13y ago

I can't compete with you on details of Pakistan! But, somehow while supposedly trying to help the US bring peace to Afghanistan, Bin Laden lived in a relatively large and nice house for some years about a good golf shot from the Pakistan army college. And no one knew he was there? And when President Clinton fired cruise missiles at the Bin Laden training camp in Afghanistan, US Secretary of State Albright (also known as Half-bright) informed the Pakistan government since the missiles would have to fly over Pakistan territory. Then somehow Half-bright's information made it to Bin Laden who was well out of the area when the missiles arrived. Of course Islam is not all there is to it, not in Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, or even Afghanistan. And clearly economics is also important. But my point was about 'culture'. Or just why have US efforts to create democracy in Afghanistan failed? My answer, culture: There's no real basis for democracy in Afghanistan culture. Does this mean that Afghanistan has no culture? No, they do. They have a strong culture, one that runs nearly everything, Islam. Get rid of Islam and they don't have much except maybe a few goats, some poppies, some rusty AK-47s. So, they don't get rid of Islam. Not all of Islam is against democracy, but the culture in Afghanistan is Islam with no foundation for democracy. This thread (sorry about the times I typed 'tread' instead) has mentioned that in part the Taliban act like the Mafia in Italy and at times parts of the US. That's some of what I thought, and, yes, it's not from Islam. But the main reason for a Mafia is that there is no good alternative system of police and government. With a good system of police, when a Mafia guy comes to a store owner and asks for a monthly payment, the store owner can go to the police who will be waiting when the Mafia guy comes and accepts the money and then ... lock up the Mafia guy for a long time. But this system needs a good culture to support such good police and, thus, good police to protect the citizens. In contrast, all Afghanistan has in culture is just Islam; Islam doesn't provide good support of police that support the citizens; there's no other culture; so the Taliban get to use Mafia tactics. Neither the Taliban nor the villagers believe that a democracy should be better. So, Islam and Mafia tactics are what's there. It's not that Islam is against good police protection; it's mostly just that Islam doesn't provide good police protection, and in Afghanistan Islam is essentially all the culture. So, no good police protection. And it's not that an Islamic country can't have good police protection; I can believe that some Islamic countries have some very strong police. But in Afghanistan, about all there is is Islam and next to nothing about good police or democracy. And the Islamic clerics? It's not in their interest to see the growth of strong, secular institutions such as good police. So, again, no good police force can grow up. Or Islamic Sharia law: Try to implement something descended from Napoleonic law or British Common law, etc., and, in a country that has essentially only Islam, many Muslims will keep asking for Sharia law. So, get a 500 year old legal system. Education? Try to set up a 21st century, or 20th century, education system, and, in a country that has essentially only Islam, a lot of Muslims will insist on Islamic education instead. Halt: Again out of date by 500 years. Look, if Islam were only religion, then it would be much less of a road block to progress in Afghanistan. Instead, Islam is running nearly everything there and, thus, is able to block nearly any change or progress. A big point about Islam for people in the US is that Islam is not just religion but is also how to dress, what to eat, how to run a marriage, education, architecture, system of laws, government, etc. So, in the less developed Islamic countries, Islam is a roadblock to change. E.g., in Iraq, there are two sides to Islam, the Shiites and the Sunnis. So, since they have little more important in their lives than just their religion, they fight. They would just rather have a civil war than get on with pumping oil and living a life of milk and honey. They did that already in Europe, been there, done that, got the T-shirt, and had the rivers running red for hundreds of years from religious wars. Finally they learned: Have politics and government separate from and largely independent of religion; have freedom of religion; and don't fight over religion. Done. When the Muslims in, say, Iraq learn that lesson, they will be ahead some hundreds of years.