3 ms·

you've censored me too many times for me to contribute to any endeavor that you control, dave, so i'd pass on your listserve anyway... but such a listserve is

you've censored me too many times for me to contribute to any endeavor that you control, dave, so i'd pass on your listserve anyway... but such a listserve is largely unnecessary. it's easy enough to find such writing-tools, just by googling with the appropriate terms. (or, if you wanna just go immediately to the most versatile: https://www.textdropapp.com https://www.textdropapp.com; but fair warning, the yearly cost is $32+.) besides, dropbox support was big _last_year_. this year, something better is now available. i'll leave you to your own devices to find it, dave, and continue to wish you the best of luck, even if i feel you haven't treated me so nicely. and i certainly won't let your animosity color my view of your software, and the potential it has. although, to be honest, i think your earlier take -- that an outlining tool and a writing tool are two different types of tools, and need to retain their separate focus in order to be their best -- was the correct one, and your new hope that you can leverage fargo into a general writing tool is one that will ultimately flop. but hey, that's just my opinion, and i'd love to see your users prove me wrong, and do amazing stuff with fargo. -bowerbird

davewiner 13y ago
Nothing changed in my view about the relationship between outlining and general writing tools. Fargo is an almost exact clone of the outliner I created in 1987. Here's something I wrote recently on the subject. http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordProcessors http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordPro... I'm doing the best I can, I don't feel any animosity toward you, I don't know where that's coming from. Peace..
- bowerbird 13y ago
  dave said: > Nothing changed in my view about the relationship between outlining and general writing tools. > Here's something I wrote recently on the subject. > http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordProcessors http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordPro... right. and earlier, in march, you wrote something similar, here: > http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/march/imNotMakingBloggingTools http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/march/imNotMakingBlogging... but since then, you added markdown support, which seems to indicate movement toward writing and editing and publishing, in addition to the outlining. further, you just recently retracted the march post, here: > http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/may/mathewTaughtMeSomething http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/may/mathewTaughtMeSomethi... and, as i said, i think your earlier take (in march and april) was more accurate, and that an attempt to go broader will cause fargo to lose focus, just as you said in the april piece. but, again, i would love to be proven wrong. because my tool-set attacks the issue from the other direction -- with a focus on the writing and editing and publishing of long-form documents -- and i've decided not to incorporate any outlining capability because i think it would blur that focus. but if your users can show me how to avoid that blurring, i will learn from them. but lacking that, i believe that (early) outlining is best seen as a good complement to (later) editing and publishing, at least for long-form documents. * > I don't feel any animosity toward you, I don't know where that's coming from. well, dave, you probably cannot be expected to keep track of all the people you censor and block. but you have censored my comments more than once, and blocked me on twitter. and while i am quite sure that you don't have any _personal_ animosity toward me, since you don't even know me, the acts of censorship and blocking are _not_ friendly ones. from your perspective, you're probably just "protecting" yourself from us "trolls". but i'd guess that you can imagine it looks different from my perspective. so no, i'm not gonna contribute to a listserve where you can censor my input. i'll stay independent, so i can call you out when you're wrong, and give you credit when you do good. -bowerbird
  - davewiner 13y ago
    Blocking isn't something I have to answer to anyone for, it's a feature in Twitter that's useful to help keep down the flamage. I think it's one of their greatest innovations. A little feedback -- you read a lot of meaning into things that are a lot simpler than you think. For example, the markdown support was added because it was coming up a lot in feature requests from users. It's just that simple. Nothing more to it than that. I've always used MORE and its descendants to write. I wrote every DaveNet piece in MORE or Frontier or the OPML Editor. I write Scripting News in the OPML Editor. Outliners are good for writing. Like I said, I don't dislike you, or even know you (as you point out). And it probably doesn't matter if you contribute to the mail list, but I don't see how it could hurt. Whatever.
    - bowerbird 13y ago
      dave said: > Blocking isn't something I have to answer to anyone for i wasn't asking you to "answer to" me for your blocking... if you want to ignore people like me who say things that we think you need to hear, go ahead and ignore us, i don't care. heck, that's the reason why so many people ignore _you_, dave. > I think it's one of their greatest innovations. i'm sure you do. but ignoring people is not an "innovation". i was merely telling you why i wouldn't join your listserve, even if i did think it'd be useful. (and, as i said, i don't; i can get more information by simply searching around a bit. and further, the horizon of the cloud has eclipsed dropbox.) > markdown support was added because it was coming up a lot um, yes, dave, i quite well understand that it is your users who are moving you toward using fargo as a writing-tool, and that's precisely why i said i hope that they succeed with it, so i can learn from _them_ how to make such a dual focus work. what you or i _think_ can work doesn't really matter (which is why i'm not interested in your effort to tell me what you think). what matters is whether people can show me a way to make it work. > I write Scripting News in the OPML Editor. and finally, yes, dave, it's certainly possible to use an outliner to write lots and lots and lots and lots of short blog articles. but that's not long-form writing. a _book_ is long-form writing, one cohesive entity that has an arc from the beginning to the end. heck, mike cane has used twitter to "write" over 275,000 tweets, but i don't consider _that_ to be "long-form writing" either... -bowerbird

davewiner 13y ago

Nothing changed in my view about the relationship between outlining and general writing tools. Fargo is an almost exact clone of the outliner I created in 1987. Here's something I wrote recently on the subject. http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordProcessors http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordPro... I'm doing the best I can, I don't feel any animosity toward you, I don't know where that's coming from. Peace..

bowerbird 13y ago
dave said: > Nothing changed in my view about the relationship between outlining and general writing tools. > Here's something I wrote recently on the subject. > http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordProcessors http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordPro... right. and earlier, in march, you wrote something similar, here: > http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/march/imNotMakingBloggingTools http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/march/imNotMakingBlogging... but since then, you added markdown support, which seems to indicate movement toward writing and editing and publishing, in addition to the outlining. further, you just recently retracted the march post, here: > http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/may/mathewTaughtMeSomething http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/may/mathewTaughtMeSomethi... and, as i said, i think your earlier take (in march and april) was more accurate, and that an attempt to go broader will cause fargo to lose focus, just as you said in the april piece. but, again, i would love to be proven wrong. because my tool-set attacks the issue from the other direction -- with a focus on the writing and editing and publishing of long-form documents -- and i've decided not to incorporate any outlining capability because i think it would blur that focus. but if your users can show me how to avoid that blurring, i will learn from them. but lacking that, i believe that (early) outlining is best seen as a good complement to (later) editing and publishing, at least for long-form documents. * > I don't feel any animosity toward you, I don't know where that's coming from. well, dave, you probably cannot be expected to keep track of all the people you censor and block. but you have censored my comments more than once, and blocked me on twitter. and while i am quite sure that you don't have any _personal_ animosity toward me, since you don't even know me, the acts of censorship and blocking are _not_ friendly ones. from your perspective, you're probably just "protecting" yourself from us "trolls". but i'd guess that you can imagine it looks different from my perspective. so no, i'm not gonna contribute to a listserve where you can censor my input. i'll stay independent, so i can call you out when you're wrong, and give you credit when you do good. -bowerbird
- davewiner 13y ago
  Blocking isn't something I have to answer to anyone for, it's a feature in Twitter that's useful to help keep down the flamage. I think it's one of their greatest innovations. A little feedback -- you read a lot of meaning into things that are a lot simpler than you think. For example, the markdown support was added because it was coming up a lot in feature requests from users. It's just that simple. Nothing more to it than that. I've always used MORE and its descendants to write. I wrote every DaveNet piece in MORE or Frontier or the OPML Editor. I write Scripting News in the OPML Editor. Outliners are good for writing. Like I said, I don't dislike you, or even know you (as you point out). And it probably doesn't matter if you contribute to the mail list, but I don't see how it could hurt. Whatever.
  - bowerbird 13y ago
    dave said: > Blocking isn't something I have to answer to anyone for i wasn't asking you to "answer to" me for your blocking... if you want to ignore people like me who say things that we think you need to hear, go ahead and ignore us, i don't care. heck, that's the reason why so many people ignore _you_, dave. > I think it's one of their greatest innovations. i'm sure you do. but ignoring people is not an "innovation". i was merely telling you why i wouldn't join your listserve, even if i did think it'd be useful. (and, as i said, i don't; i can get more information by simply searching around a bit. and further, the horizon of the cloud has eclipsed dropbox.) > markdown support was added because it was coming up a lot um, yes, dave, i quite well understand that it is your users who are moving you toward using fargo as a writing-tool, and that's precisely why i said i hope that they succeed with it, so i can learn from _them_ how to make such a dual focus work. what you or i _think_ can work doesn't really matter (which is why i'm not interested in your effort to tell me what you think). what matters is whether people can show me a way to make it work. > I write Scripting News in the OPML Editor. and finally, yes, dave, it's certainly possible to use an outliner to write lots and lots and lots and lots of short blog articles. but that's not long-form writing. a _book_ is long-form writing, one cohesive entity that has an arc from the beginning to the end. heck, mike cane has used twitter to "write" over 275,000 tweets, but i don't consider _that_ to be "long-form writing" either... -bowerbird