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The United States is the only advanced economy in the world that does not guarantee its workers paid vacation. You can guarantee it yourself when you accept a

The United States is the only advanced economy in the world that does not guarantee its workers paid vacation. You can guarantee it yourself when you accept a position somewhere. But once again we have leftists in the media assuming that everybody is completely incompetent without the government intervening in every aspect of society. You can just see those so-called journalists over at the Washington Post looking at the "social democracies" like a starry-eyed school girl.

ck2 13y ago
Yeah that darn minimum wage and pesky anti-slavery laws. Who the heck does the government think it is anyway. And why do responsible drivers need traffic lights.
- sultezdukes 13y ago
  Who made slavery legal to begin with? And your typical leftist tactic of acting like we're calling for anarchy is boring
  - danso 13y ago
    IIRC, it was the Founding Fathers who were critical in allowing slavery to be legal. I wasn't aware that they were considered to be particularly left-wing.
    - ivix 13y ago
      Sure about that? Compare their policies to British equivalents at the time.
  - ck2 13y ago
    The people who made and insured slavery was legal appear on every form of currency in your wallet (except the penny and $5 bill). The very motive of capitalism is to make as much profit in any way possible. The only thing holding it back is law, which is made by government. The problem is the government which should be run by the people but more often than not is run by lobbyists who are owned by the corporations looking to push for more capitalism. The answer is not less laws, it's less lobbyists.
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    Don't go away, next up on HN: Long Weekend Edition, we throw back to the 60s and start calling each other commie pinkos. Join us at 4pm for a live reenactment of the McCarthy hearings! Seriously though, ad hominems aren't cool. Can we keep things at least slightly civil?
lgray 13y ago
So you're saying that the United States is right and every other developed country is wrong? Morals aside, that seems like a bit of a stretch.
- sultezdukes 13y ago
  And you're saying that there is a right answer?
- 31reasons 13y ago
  Whatever the mess US is in, its a mess that produces high number of entrepreneurs and innovation. Try duplicating Silicon Valley, Europe.
  - crucifiction 13y ago
    Considering those jobs all get paid vacation, you are missing the point entirely. It is the some-high-school educated, sick guy at Subway that they are talking about. Seattle (just the city) recently mandated 3-days sick leave for all employees in businesses in the city. The sky has not fallen yet and it remains to be seen if there is less flu because the cooks and waiters aren't coughing in your $30 tech worker lunch.
  - a-priori 13y ago
    Try duplicating Silicon Valley, United States. If the US were some magical recipe for innovation and entrepreneurship, then I would expect Silicon Valleys to pop up in every major metropolitan area. Certainly, if you think that the world is big enough to support more than one if only the laws changed, then it's not much of a stretch to think that the US could too. Perhaps New York would be a good choice. It's on the coast, at a similar latitude. It has a large, educated and diverse population. It's got access to oodles of financial capital (probably more than the Bay Area). It has the same federal laws and (I presume) similar state and municipal laws. Why aren't tech giants popping up in New York just as much as the Bay Area? Edit to clarify my point: This leads to one of two conclusions: either the US is not so exceptional and Silicon Valley is an historical accident, or the world is not big enough for more than one. In either case it doesn't make sense to accuse the rest of the world of dropping the torch of innovation and entrepreneurship.
rjtavares 13y ago
It's a factual claim. Whether you think of it as a positive or negative is entirely up to you.
rsrivas 13y ago
The article actually goes on to address this specific point: Of course, in practice, richer workers are able to negotiate for both paid vacation and paid holidays. It’s poorer workers who can’t take any time off. This table shows how it actually works out across the economy. While the top wage earners seem to be able to negotiate comparable number of vacation days as most other nations, it's the bottom wage earners that seem to have absolutely no negotiating powers.
- sultezdukes 13y ago
  While the top wage earners seem to be able to negotiate comparable number of vacation days as most other nations, it's the bottom wage earners that seem to have absolutely no negotiating powers. So when McDonald's offers you a job, you can't ask them about vacation time?
  - rrouse 13y ago
    You can ask, but you probably won't get it. Some people don't have the luxury of choosing which job they take. Sometimes there's only one.
- MysticFear 13y ago
  Bottom wage earners can and do create Labor Unions to allow for negotiation.
  - nijk 13y ago
    Those are usually skilled middle wage earners, like mechanics and medical professionals. Bottom wage earners like receptionists and cashiers don't.
techsupporter 13y ago
I sincerely believe that there is a better way to have discussions like this than to resort to name-calling ("leftists," "starry-eyed school girl"). The fact remains that the United States' economy does currently have the $guaranteed_paid_vacation flag set to "false." Making snide comments and throwing ad hominem labels around does nothing to advance the discussion regarding whether or not this is a right/proper/just/correct state of existence.
rschmitty 13y ago
Did you even read the source http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/no-vacation-update-2013-05.pdf http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/no-vacation-updat..., or did FoxNews send you over to troll this site? Everyone on this site can guarantee it because we are highly skilled workers or entrepreneurs and most of us make a very decent living. In fact, the higher I've climbed the more vacation I have received. There are many in this country cannot guarantee it.
v13inc 13y ago
I think it is safe to assume that for any skill you can think of, like negotiating holidays, there will be a group of people who are (in your words) incompetent. The question is, what should happen to that group of people?
- pyre 13y ago
  Obviously, the people that are better than them at negotiating holidays should live a life of leisure while those that are lacking should live a life of toil and strife. </sarcasm>
snprbob86 13y ago
You are being completely ignorant. My girlfriend, who has a college degree, works for Delta as a flight attendant. After the North West merger, her colleagues collectively voted against a union because of perceived corruption and expectedly high union dues. In the year since the failed vote, there have been substantial adverse changes to vacation and sick leave rules, increased abuse of duty days by crew scheduling, and decreased medical benefits. That's 20,000 people who thought they had guarantees on paid vacation who suddenly need to spend more of their own money to get a doctors note on holiday weekends. By the way, if you need a doctors note at 4am before going to work: You need to go to the ER... which is expensive. Meanwhile, they are being forced to work longer and longer hours for depreciating pay. The ~9,000 people who knew to vote for collective bargaining power should not be punished by the ~11,000 short sighted ones. Furthermore, government exists to provide for the common welfare. That's its role. Those 20,000 people already pay their taxes, why should they also have to pay union dues to get basic protections for their working conditions and compensation? This story happens over and over again in many industries. These people aren't incompetent, yet you're suggesting that they'd have to be in order for someone to believe that they need government to protect them. In the common case, they are hardworking, educated, friendly people who are being screwed by people like you. Wether you and our elected officials are ignorant or malicious, I don't know. But what you are saying is bullshit.
- dillona 13y ago
  Wouldn't that indicate that she should find another position?
  - snprbob86 13y ago
    Where? She could go to a totally different industry, but she'd be starting her career over again at the bottom. She loves flying & traveling, so she'd probably want to go to another airline. However, Delta (one of the largest airlines) accepts a only few thousand new flight attendants per year out of many tens of thousands of applicants. Smaller airlines would be even more difficult to get a job at. All the airlines are also seniority based, so she's have to start her career over again at the bottom. Experience at other airlines wouldn't contribute one iota to her standing in a new airline. College put her (and everybody else) in substantial debt, so she can't start a business or do anything really risky like that. This is a story you have all heard over and over again... If you're a well paid engineer, it might be hard for you to understand: Educated, hard working people, are constantly screwed by the system and consistently ignored by people who don't understand their plight.
room271 13y ago
Rather than resorting to name calling ('leftists') you could perhaps engage with some of the many arguments presented in this thread for why it is sensible to have a minimum guaranteed holiday period.

ck2 13y ago

Yeah that darn minimum wage and pesky anti-slavery laws. Who the heck does the government think it is anyway. And why do responsible drivers need traffic lights.

sultezdukes 13y ago
Who made slavery legal to begin with? And your typical leftist tactic of acting like we're calling for anarchy is boring
- danso 13y ago
  IIRC, it was the Founding Fathers who were critical in allowing slavery to be legal. I wasn't aware that they were considered to be particularly left-wing.
  - ivix 13y ago
    Sure about that? Compare their policies to British equivalents at the time.
- ck2 13y ago
  The people who made and insured slavery was legal appear on every form of currency in your wallet (except the penny and $5 bill). The very motive of capitalism is to make as much profit in any way possible. The only thing holding it back is law, which is made by government. The problem is the government which should be run by the people but more often than not is run by lobbyists who are owned by the corporations looking to push for more capitalism. The answer is not less laws, it's less lobbyists.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  Don't go away, next up on HN: Long Weekend Edition, we throw back to the 60s and start calling each other commie pinkos. Join us at 4pm for a live reenactment of the McCarthy hearings! Seriously though, ad hominems aren't cool. Can we keep things at least slightly civil?

lgray 13y ago

So you're saying that the United States is right and every other developed country is wrong? Morals aside, that seems like a bit of a stretch.

sultezdukes 13y ago
And you're saying that there is a right answer?
31reasons 13y ago
Whatever the mess US is in, its a mess that produces high number of entrepreneurs and innovation. Try duplicating Silicon Valley, Europe.
- crucifiction 13y ago
  Considering those jobs all get paid vacation, you are missing the point entirely. It is the some-high-school educated, sick guy at Subway that they are talking about. Seattle (just the city) recently mandated 3-days sick leave for all employees in businesses in the city. The sky has not fallen yet and it remains to be seen if there is less flu because the cooks and waiters aren't coughing in your $30 tech worker lunch.
- a-priori 13y ago
  Try duplicating Silicon Valley, United States. If the US were some magical recipe for innovation and entrepreneurship, then I would expect Silicon Valleys to pop up in every major metropolitan area. Certainly, if you think that the world is big enough to support more than one if only the laws changed, then it's not much of a stretch to think that the US could too. Perhaps New York would be a good choice. It's on the coast, at a similar latitude. It has a large, educated and diverse population. It's got access to oodles of financial capital (probably more than the Bay Area). It has the same federal laws and (I presume) similar state and municipal laws. Why aren't tech giants popping up in New York just as much as the Bay Area? Edit to clarify my point: This leads to one of two conclusions: either the US is not so exceptional and Silicon Valley is an historical accident, or the world is not big enough for more than one. In either case it doesn't make sense to accuse the rest of the world of dropping the torch of innovation and entrepreneurship.

rjtavares 13y ago

It's a factual claim. Whether you think of it as a positive or negative is entirely up to you.

rsrivas 13y ago

The article actually goes on to address this specific point: Of course, in practice, richer workers are able to negotiate for both paid vacation and paid holidays. It’s poorer workers who can’t take any time off. This table shows how it actually works out across the economy. While the top wage earners seem to be able to negotiate comparable number of vacation days as most other nations, it's the bottom wage earners that seem to have absolutely no negotiating powers.

sultezdukes 13y ago
While the top wage earners seem to be able to negotiate comparable number of vacation days as most other nations, it's the bottom wage earners that seem to have absolutely no negotiating powers. So when McDonald's offers you a job, you can't ask them about vacation time?
- rrouse 13y ago
  You can ask, but you probably won't get it. Some people don't have the luxury of choosing which job they take. Sometimes there's only one.
MysticFear 13y ago
Bottom wage earners can and do create Labor Unions to allow for negotiation.
- nijk 13y ago
  Those are usually skilled middle wage earners, like mechanics and medical professionals. Bottom wage earners like receptionists and cashiers don't.

techsupporter 13y ago

I sincerely believe that there is a better way to have discussions like this than to resort to name-calling ("leftists," "starry-eyed school girl"). The fact remains that the United States' economy does currently have the $guaranteed_paid_vacation flag set to "false." Making snide comments and throwing ad hominem labels around does nothing to advance the discussion regarding whether or not this is a right/proper/just/correct state of existence.

rschmitty 13y ago

Did you even read the source http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/no-vacation-update-2013-05.pdf http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/no-vacation-updat..., or did FoxNews send you over to troll this site? Everyone on this site can guarantee it because we are highly skilled workers or entrepreneurs and most of us make a very decent living. In fact, the higher I've climbed the more vacation I have received. There are many in this country cannot guarantee it.

v13inc 13y ago

I think it is safe to assume that for any skill you can think of, like negotiating holidays, there will be a group of people who are (in your words) incompetent. The question is, what should happen to that group of people?

pyre 13y ago
Obviously, the people that are better than them at negotiating holidays should live a life of leisure while those that are lacking should live a life of toil and strife. </sarcasm>

snprbob86 13y ago

You are being completely ignorant. My girlfriend, who has a college degree, works for Delta as a flight attendant. After the North West merger, her colleagues collectively voted against a union because of perceived corruption and expectedly high union dues. In the year since the failed vote, there have been substantial adverse changes to vacation and sick leave rules, increased abuse of duty days by crew scheduling, and decreased medical benefits. That's 20,000 people who thought they had guarantees on paid vacation who suddenly need to spend more of their own money to get a doctors note on holiday weekends. By the way, if you need a doctors note at 4am before going to work: You need to go to the ER... which is expensive. Meanwhile, they are being forced to work longer and longer hours for depreciating pay. The ~9,000 people who knew to vote for collective bargaining power should not be punished by the ~11,000 short sighted ones. Furthermore, government exists to provide for the common welfare. That's its role. Those 20,000 people already pay their taxes, why should they also have to pay union dues to get basic protections for their working conditions and compensation? This story happens over and over again in many industries. These people aren't incompetent, yet you're suggesting that they'd have to be in order for someone to believe that they need government to protect them. In the common case, they are hardworking, educated, friendly people who are being screwed by people like you. Wether you and our elected officials are ignorant or malicious, I don't know. But what you are saying is bullshit.

dillona 13y ago
Wouldn't that indicate that she should find another position?
- snprbob86 13y ago
  Where? She could go to a totally different industry, but she'd be starting her career over again at the bottom. She loves flying & traveling, so she'd probably want to go to another airline. However, Delta (one of the largest airlines) accepts a only few thousand new flight attendants per year out of many tens of thousands of applicants. Smaller airlines would be even more difficult to get a job at. All the airlines are also seniority based, so she's have to start her career over again at the bottom. Experience at other airlines wouldn't contribute one iota to her standing in a new airline. College put her (and everybody else) in substantial debt, so she can't start a business or do anything really risky like that. This is a story you have all heard over and over again... If you're a well paid engineer, it might be hard for you to understand: Educated, hard working people, are constantly screwed by the system and consistently ignored by people who don't understand their plight.

room271 13y ago

Rather than resorting to name calling ('leftists') you could perhaps engage with some of the many arguments presented in this thread for why it is sensible to have a minimum guaranteed holiday period.