4 ms·

If everybody got a basic income, basic necessities such as housing and food, would just get more expensive. Those who had very little purchasing power before wo

by flexie 13y ago

If everybody got a basic income, basic necessities such as housing and food, would just get more expensive. Those who had very little purchasing power before would still have very little purchasing power. And where is the need for this in Europe? Where is the poverty? I grew up in what is referred to as one of the richest countries in the EU and am now living in what is on paper the poorest EU country. Down here, young people drive better cars, have bigger homes, eat and drink well, go out more, go on the same vacations to Dubai and Thailand, and have access to free health care and education. Sure, the bottom of the income ladder, which in South East Europe is (roughly speaking) comprised of Romas, of the elderly people and of what is left of rural population, is certainly poorer than the bottom in Scandinavia, but giving everybody basic income would just hit these groups with more expenses. You wouldn't be able to buy a meal for less than two euros if everybody had 20 euro to spare.

Ygg2 13y ago
> And where is the need for this in Europe? Where is the poverty? Well southern states are in a pickle and there but there are problems brewing practically everywhere PIGS and non-PIGS alike. Thing is in part southern states aren't only to blame for their own problems. In general case, without the euro, they could let their currency take a dive and become a better opportunity to invest. However while they have Euro and have strong economies like Germany tied to the Euro, the Euro won't sink enough for them to be profitable and whenever it does sink, it just makes Germany more concurrent than them in the global market. Their industries simply can't match Germany's and their currencies can't adapt. According to OECD in 2011. here are some statistics people worked yearly on average: Germans 1413 hrs, South Koreans - 2090 hrs, Greeks - 2023 hrs. Of course statistics can be deceiving and some jobs might have been in buerocracy, or less efficient than in advanced countries, but I don't think it's possible to generate all that extra time solely from pushing papers around. Scandinavia is also experiencing a crisis of sorts, with inequality rising and riots breaking out like the last one in Stolkholm. Though they are for a different reason. > South East Europe is (roughly speaking) comprised of Romas, of the elderly people and of what is left of rural population True, but this is mostly due to the fact that technical people that had skills/knowledge emigrated to western contries (like Germany, UK, US) or Scandinavia. Western countries have in a way been exporting their unemployment to South-eastern countries. Why this is important, when people finish their work (i.e. retire, they take their western pensions to their hometown, where you can live off it decently).
- flexie 13y ago
  In spite of the crisis, the Mediterranean countries are among the wealthiest in Europe: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/poor-germany-it-is-time-for-a-debate-on-euro-crisis-burden-sharing-a-894398.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/poor-germany-it-i... As for Scandinavians, I can assure you they aren't going to bed hungry.
  - Ygg2 13y ago
    I think I've saw that diagram, that's only half the picture I remembered. Here is the other half: http://www.voxeu.org/article/are-germans-really-poorer-spaniards-italians-and-greeks?quicktabs_tabbed_recent_articles_block=1 http://www.voxeu.org/article/are-germans-really-poorer-spani... TL;DR The gist is that first they looked at median, while mean housholds are of much greater values. Also figures seem to indicate that a lot of wealth of Germany is located in their state and not in their household ownership. Basically most German households don't have money for bailouts but Germany does.
- flexie 13y ago
  You keep updating your post, so it's hard to reply to it all :-) Yes, many South Eastern Europeans have left for the US, UK, Germany, Italy, and Spain (not so many for Scandinavia, though). So far, few have returned. I am not sure it's fair to say that Western countries export their unemployment to Eastern Europe, thougn. There is also a lot of Western jobs being outsourced to Eastern Europe.
phaemon 13y ago
Have you honestly never seen poverty in Europe? You've never seen homeless people or people begging?
- flexie 13y ago
  Of course I have seen homeless and beggars - also in rich Scandinavia in the heydays 5-10 years ago. Virtually everybody who is without work in Denmark is entitled to some kind of welfare. Often that welfare is higher than what working people make in other countries (typically 1-3,000 euro). But prices on basic necesssities are also high.
riffraff 13y ago
I think you may want to consider your experience purely anecdotical, and I'd ask you to read on only because it partially matches mine. I grew up in a reasonably rich EU country (IT), and now live in a theoretically poorer EU country (HU). Of course, most of the people I know in budapest speak two or three languages, have one or more university degrees, live in the city centre, work for multinational companies or have their own. This doesn't mean that the hungarians are all rich and educated and live in budapest city center, it means that I don't meet the others. Compare with my friends from the old home town: plenty of them only have only a high school degree, don't speak a word of english, can't afford a house and live with their parents, have an insecure job and when they'll lose it they'll not necessarily get unempolyment benefits. It's not being poor as in "I can't eat", it's being poor as in "I can't plan my life beyond this season, and don't see a future for myself". I have for the first time, seen shops selling yesterday's bread, because they can sell it for a lower price, and they started charging people for cheese crusts (which you would usually get for free to make soups or feed animals) because people were freeloading those.
- flexie 13y ago
  As I said, poverty in South Eastern Europe is mainly a problem among Romas, elderly people and people who stayed in the rural areas. From what I can read the pattern is similar in Central Eastern Europe. It is bad enough that poverty is associated with a single ethnic group but it does suggest that a general basic income for all europeans is unnecessary. In Hungary, where you reside, Romas comprise of 2/3 of the poorest 300,000 people, have a much higher unemployment rate than other ethnicities, high much higher illiteracy and are generally discriminated against at the labor market. These are the problems to solve.
bryanlarsen 13y ago
"housing and food, would just get more expensive" If it does get more expensive, that means that demand went up, which meant that more people now have housing & food than before. That's a good thing, which far outweighs any negative from the price going up slightly. And it would be only a slight price increase. After all, the vast majority of people in Europe already have housing and food so the demand increase would be relatively small. "where is the need for this in Europe?" If what you say is true, it's true because of the existing social safety nets. BI would replace many of the welfare programs already existing, so the impact on the finances of the EU or on the non-working poor should be minimal. The big benefit for BI is its impact on the working poor along with the employers that depend on them. BI will allow governments to eliminate minimum wage along with the regulations that make it difficult to fire people in certain European countries. This should drastically increase the number of jobs available which is good for both the poor and their employers.
- Gormo 13y ago
  > If it does get more expensive, that means that demand went up Or it just means that the currency has inflated, which is, of course, the more likely outcome of handing out money to everyone.
- flexie 13y ago
  If 500 million Europeans are suddenly given a basic income of, say 1,000 Euro per month, on top of whatever other income they already have, then things will get more expensive.

by flexie 13y ago

Ygg2 13y ago

> And where is the need for this in Europe? Where is the poverty? Well southern states are in a pickle and there but there are problems brewing practically everywhere PIGS and non-PIGS alike. Thing is in part southern states aren't only to blame for their own problems. In general case, without the euro, they could let their currency take a dive and become a better opportunity to invest. However while they have Euro and have strong economies like Germany tied to the Euro, the Euro won't sink enough for them to be profitable and whenever it does sink, it just makes Germany more concurrent than them in the global market. Their industries simply can't match Germany's and their currencies can't adapt. According to OECD in 2011. here are some statistics people worked yearly on average: Germans 1413 hrs, South Koreans - 2090 hrs, Greeks - 2023 hrs. Of course statistics can be deceiving and some jobs might have been in buerocracy, or less efficient than in advanced countries, but I don't think it's possible to generate all that extra time solely from pushing papers around. Scandinavia is also experiencing a crisis of sorts, with inequality rising and riots breaking out like the last one in Stolkholm. Though they are for a different reason. > South East Europe is (roughly speaking) comprised of Romas, of the elderly people and of what is left of rural population True, but this is mostly due to the fact that technical people that had skills/knowledge emigrated to western contries (like Germany, UK, US) or Scandinavia. Western countries have in a way been exporting their unemployment to South-eastern countries. Why this is important, when people finish their work (i.e. retire, they take their western pensions to their hometown, where you can live off it decently).

flexie 13y ago
In spite of the crisis, the Mediterranean countries are among the wealthiest in Europe: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/poor-germany-it-is-time-for-a-debate-on-euro-crisis-burden-sharing-a-894398.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/poor-germany-it-i... As for Scandinavians, I can assure you they aren't going to bed hungry.
- Ygg2 13y ago
  I think I've saw that diagram, that's only half the picture I remembered. Here is the other half: http://www.voxeu.org/article/are-germans-really-poorer-spaniards-italians-and-greeks?quicktabs_tabbed_recent_articles_block=1 http://www.voxeu.org/article/are-germans-really-poorer-spani... TL;DR The gist is that first they looked at median, while mean housholds are of much greater values. Also figures seem to indicate that a lot of wealth of Germany is located in their state and not in their household ownership. Basically most German households don't have money for bailouts but Germany does.
flexie 13y ago
You keep updating your post, so it's hard to reply to it all :-) Yes, many South Eastern Europeans have left for the US, UK, Germany, Italy, and Spain (not so many for Scandinavia, though). So far, few have returned. I am not sure it's fair to say that Western countries export their unemployment to Eastern Europe, thougn. There is also a lot of Western jobs being outsourced to Eastern Europe.

phaemon 13y ago

Have you honestly never seen poverty in Europe? You've never seen homeless people or people begging?

flexie 13y ago
Of course I have seen homeless and beggars - also in rich Scandinavia in the heydays 5-10 years ago. Virtually everybody who is without work in Denmark is entitled to some kind of welfare. Often that welfare is higher than what working people make in other countries (typically 1-3,000 euro). But prices on basic necesssities are also high.

riffraff 13y ago

I think you may want to consider your experience purely anecdotical, and I'd ask you to read on only because it partially matches mine. I grew up in a reasonably rich EU country (IT), and now live in a theoretically poorer EU country (HU). Of course, most of the people I know in budapest speak two or three languages, have one or more university degrees, live in the city centre, work for multinational companies or have their own. This doesn't mean that the hungarians are all rich and educated and live in budapest city center, it means that I don't meet the others. Compare with my friends from the old home town: plenty of them only have only a high school degree, don't speak a word of english, can't afford a house and live with their parents, have an insecure job and when they'll lose it they'll not necessarily get unempolyment benefits. It's not being poor as in "I can't eat", it's being poor as in "I can't plan my life beyond this season, and don't see a future for myself". I have for the first time, seen shops selling yesterday's bread, because they can sell it for a lower price, and they started charging people for cheese crusts (which you would usually get for free to make soups or feed animals) because people were freeloading those.

flexie 13y ago
As I said, poverty in South Eastern Europe is mainly a problem among Romas, elderly people and people who stayed in the rural areas. From what I can read the pattern is similar in Central Eastern Europe. It is bad enough that poverty is associated with a single ethnic group but it does suggest that a general basic income for all europeans is unnecessary. In Hungary, where you reside, Romas comprise of 2/3 of the poorest 300,000 people, have a much higher unemployment rate than other ethnicities, high much higher illiteracy and are generally discriminated against at the labor market. These are the problems to solve.

bryanlarsen 13y ago

"housing and food, would just get more expensive" If it does get more expensive, that means that demand went up, which meant that more people now have housing & food than before. That's a good thing, which far outweighs any negative from the price going up slightly. And it would be only a slight price increase. After all, the vast majority of people in Europe already have housing and food so the demand increase would be relatively small. "where is the need for this in Europe?" If what you say is true, it's true because of the existing social safety nets. BI would replace many of the welfare programs already existing, so the impact on the finances of the EU or on the non-working poor should be minimal. The big benefit for BI is its impact on the working poor along with the employers that depend on them. BI will allow governments to eliminate minimum wage along with the regulations that make it difficult to fire people in certain European countries. This should drastically increase the number of jobs available which is good for both the poor and their employers.

Gormo 13y ago
> If it does get more expensive, that means that demand went up Or it just means that the currency has inflated, which is, of course, the more likely outcome of handing out money to everyone.
flexie 13y ago
If 500 million Europeans are suddenly given a basic income of, say 1,000 Euro per month, on top of whatever other income they already have, then things will get more expensive.