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4000 $/hour for a trial lawyer ? I hope I never get arrested for anything in the US, my lawyer would cost me more in 2 days than what I make in a year (after ta

by gutnor 13y ago

4000 $/hour for a trial lawyer ? I hope I never get arrested for anything in the US, my lawyer would cost me more in 2 days than what I make in a year (after taxes). I understand better why people settle all the time - who can afford to defend himself unless he is risking lifetime in jail ?

aclevernickname 13y ago
You can settle criminal charges in most countries. In Canada specifically, it's Section 11 of the Criminal Code that allows this. I know there's a similar section in US Code, but I can't remember. Any lawyer wish to do my homework for me? :)
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Being able to settle is something only the guilty should find relieving.
  - aclevernickname 13y ago
    while that's true, you notice that there's no "innocent" pleading in any of our courts; only two versions of "guilty". If you're charged in a court, you're either guilty, or guilty with the dishonor of a trial. While 100% exploitable by criminals, provisions like Section 11 are there to mitigate actual miscarriages of justice while keeping all parties in honor.
  - Falling3 13y ago
    You have way too much faith in the justice system. Surely, you know there are a non-trivial number of people wrongly convicted every year.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      No, I have no faith in the justice system. Currently the innocent find it comforting that they can settle, but that is now how it should be. "Being able to settle is something only the guilty SHOULD find relieving."
      - aclevernickname 13y ago
        having no faith in the justice system is probably the healthiest mindset. imagine having faith in LLVM to compile your code because you believe that the compiler will do the right thing. the Justice System, much like LLVM, doesn't require faith to run; it requires valid code. That said, if you're in court, you're pretty much guilty. It doesn't matter that you've done nothing wrong (no "innocent" plea, remember?); you're in their court, and that means someone has charged you and is demanding payment. "Guilty" means "to pay", according to Black's/Bouvier's. that means that Not Guilty is somewhere you don't want to be (committing a commercial dishonor in their court == contempt). Just pay the fine (you can pay with securities/commercial paper if you don't want to use cash/cheques), and be done with the matter. Once you've settled, file a motion to expunge with a higher court in order to clear your record. As the guilty, I guess I find being able to settle pretty relieving. :)
  - btilly 13y ago
    Were you paying attention to the Aaron Swartz mess? Typical numbers if you're charged with a federal felony are that the statutory limit might be 50 years, if it goes to court and you lose it might be 5-7 years, if you declare guilty it might be 6 months, and the cost of defending (which could wind up with 0 or 5-7 years) is about 1.5 million. Even if you're in the right, the cost of fighting frequently exceeds what you're capable of, and the risk of fighting may as well. Thus plenty of innocent people are likely to settle. (Kafka would be proud. But that is reality today in "the land of the free".)
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      The Aaron Swartz mess is why I say that. That innocent people currently find it relieving that they are able to settle (and to be clear, they currently do) is a symptom of an unhealthy justice system. In a just system, the innocent are not afraid to stand up for themselves. With the system we currently have this is not so.
jacques_chester 13y ago
Criminal trial lawyers? No. A really good corporate lawyer? Yep. 20-30k per day for the best of the best; plus various thousands of dollars for their assistants. (Now you know why Gigaco Inc vs Humunco Inc cases can blow out to millions or even tens of millions of dollars).
- dpe82 13y ago
  Have you ever hired, worked with, met, talked to or at least seen the bill from a top corporate attorney? They're expensive for sure, but not that expensive. Much of the cost of those cases comes from the army of junior associates reading through thousands of pages of evidence, etc.
  - jacques_chester 13y ago
    I'm thinking of actual court appearance fees, but I'm ready to be utterly wrong (I don't retain many QCs).
    - dpe82 13y ago
      Didn't mean to be flippant as I'm not an expert either, but through the course of my career I've spoken to a ton of attorneys including a few who routinely represent companies all of us know well. The top corporate litigators I've met charge in the $1000/hr range, but not much more than that. Their rates tend to be somewhat negotiable as well depending on the task.
      - n9com 13y ago
        I know of lawyers who charge $20,000 for a 15 minute court appearance. They represent billionaires.
        bhousel 13y ago
        They aren't charging $20,000 for 15 minutes of work. That number includes 20-40 hours of trial prep, with maybe some other expenses thrown in.

by gutnor 13y ago

aclevernickname 13y ago

You can settle criminal charges in most countries. In Canada specifically, it's Section 11 of the Criminal Code that allows this. I know there's a similar section in US Code, but I can't remember. Any lawyer wish to do my homework for me? :)

jlgreco 13y ago
Being able to settle is something only the guilty should find relieving.
- aclevernickname 13y ago
  while that's true, you notice that there's no "innocent" pleading in any of our courts; only two versions of "guilty". If you're charged in a court, you're either guilty, or guilty with the dishonor of a trial. While 100% exploitable by criminals, provisions like Section 11 are there to mitigate actual miscarriages of justice while keeping all parties in honor.
- Falling3 13y ago
  You have way too much faith in the justice system. Surely, you know there are a non-trivial number of people wrongly convicted every year.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    No, I have no faith in the justice system. Currently the innocent find it comforting that they can settle, but that is now how it should be. "Being able to settle is something only the guilty SHOULD find relieving."
    - aclevernickname 13y ago
      having no faith in the justice system is probably the healthiest mindset. imagine having faith in LLVM to compile your code because you believe that the compiler will do the right thing. the Justice System, much like LLVM, doesn't require faith to run; it requires valid code. That said, if you're in court, you're pretty much guilty. It doesn't matter that you've done nothing wrong (no "innocent" plea, remember?); you're in their court, and that means someone has charged you and is demanding payment. "Guilty" means "to pay", according to Black's/Bouvier's. that means that Not Guilty is somewhere you don't want to be (committing a commercial dishonor in their court == contempt). Just pay the fine (you can pay with securities/commercial paper if you don't want to use cash/cheques), and be done with the matter. Once you've settled, file a motion to expunge with a higher court in order to clear your record. As the guilty, I guess I find being able to settle pretty relieving. :)
- btilly 13y ago
  Were you paying attention to the Aaron Swartz mess? Typical numbers if you're charged with a federal felony are that the statutory limit might be 50 years, if it goes to court and you lose it might be 5-7 years, if you declare guilty it might be 6 months, and the cost of defending (which could wind up with 0 or 5-7 years) is about 1.5 million. Even if you're in the right, the cost of fighting frequently exceeds what you're capable of, and the risk of fighting may as well. Thus plenty of innocent people are likely to settle. (Kafka would be proud. But that is reality today in "the land of the free".)
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    The Aaron Swartz mess is why I say that. That innocent people currently find it relieving that they are able to settle (and to be clear, they currently do) is a symptom of an unhealthy justice system. In a just system, the innocent are not afraid to stand up for themselves. With the system we currently have this is not so.

jacques_chester 13y ago

Criminal trial lawyers? No. A really good corporate lawyer? Yep. 20-30k per day for the best of the best; plus various thousands of dollars for their assistants. (Now you know why Gigaco Inc vs Humunco Inc cases can blow out to millions or even tens of millions of dollars).

dpe82 13y ago
Have you ever hired, worked with, met, talked to or at least seen the bill from a top corporate attorney? They're expensive for sure, but not that expensive. Much of the cost of those cases comes from the army of junior associates reading through thousands of pages of evidence, etc.
- jacques_chester 13y ago
  I'm thinking of actual court appearance fees, but I'm ready to be utterly wrong (I don't retain many QCs).
  - dpe82 13y ago
    Didn't mean to be flippant as I'm not an expert either, but through the course of my career I've spoken to a ton of attorneys including a few who routinely represent companies all of us know well. The top corporate litigators I've met charge in the $1000/hr range, but not much more than that. Their rates tend to be somewhat negotiable as well depending on the task.
    - n9com 13y ago
      I know of lawyers who charge $20,000 for a 15 minute court appearance. They represent billionaires.
      - bhousel 13y ago
        They aren't charging $20,000 for 15 minutes of work. That number includes 20-40 hours of trial prep, with maybe some other expenses thrown in.