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No offense, but my lawyer doesn't even charge me $400/hour. Who is paying that much and for what? I've been in the contracting game for almost a decade now an

No offense, but my lawyer doesn't even charge me $400/hour. Who is paying that much and for what? I've been in the contracting game for almost a decade now and have rarely, if ever, seen anything like that for programming work. I'm not disparaging, I'm really just curious. Thanks.

46Bit 13y ago
> No offense, but my lawyer doesn't even charge me $400/hour. Just as with developers, if you're getting $400/hour you're not an ordinary lawyer working with ordinary people. You can get that if you've experience and knowledge in a particular domain.
jacques_chester 13y ago
It wouldn't be for programming work qua programming work. It'll be soft skills, specialist services and consulting related to that work. Eg, penetration testing. Software project management advice. Audits of IT processes. Requirements gathering workshops. Etc etc. Also, $400/hr would be high for a general suburban lawyer / solicitor. It's low to mid for a specialist. And suspiciously cheap for a barrister / trial lawyer (multiply by ten).
- USNetizen 13y ago
  Ok, that I might be able to see. I was thinking programming because that is what the poster asked about. I've charged in the $200/hr ballpark for project management work before, but, still, $400/hour seems way high for a long-term contract.
  - jacques_chester 13y ago
    Basically, the path to $400/hr is to just keep upgrading your skills, keep networking and keep walking up your rates. There are businesses who'll pay without blinking. I see senior PM jobs quoted in thousands per day.
- gutnor 13y ago
  4000 $/hour for a trial lawyer ? I hope I never get arrested for anything in the US, my lawyer would cost me more in 2 days than what I make in a year (after taxes). I understand better why people settle all the time - who can afford to defend himself unless he is risking lifetime in jail ?
  - aclevernickname 13y ago
    You can settle criminal charges in most countries. In Canada specifically, it's Section 11 of the Criminal Code that allows this. I know there's a similar section in US Code, but I can't remember. Any lawyer wish to do my homework for me? :)
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      Being able to settle is something only the guilty should find relieving.
      - aclevernickname 13y ago
        while that's true, you notice that there's no "innocent" pleading in any of our courts; only two versions of "guilty". If you're charged in a court, you're either guilty, or guilty with the dishonor of a trial. While 100% exploitable by criminals, provisions like Section 11 are there to mitigate actual miscarriages of justice while keeping all parties in honor.
      - Falling3 13y ago
        You have way too much faith in the justice system. Surely, you know there are a non-trivial number of people wrongly convicted every year.
        jlgreco 13y ago
        No, I have no faith in the justice system. Currently the innocent find it comforting that they can settle, but that is now how it should be. "Being able to settle is something only the guilty SHOULD find relieving."
tptacek 13y ago
(a) Your lawyer makes you less money than a lot of software developers make for a lot for a lot of companies. Your lawyer is also considerably less scarce than a lot of software subspecialty practitioners are. (b) Your lawyer is also cheap. Sell a company and see what they charge. (c) I'm not saying it's wrong not to be charging $400/hr; I'm saying, if you want a representative sample of the spectrum of hourly rates consultant, $150 is much too low. There are technical subspecialties --- not business or vertical-focused --- that routinely beat $150.
- USNetizen 13y ago
  I'm asking WHAT specialties are charging this rate in the technical fields, because I haven't seen them, so I'm curious. Admittedly, my lawyer is general practice, so, yes, what they charge is based on that. But, still, $400/hr for a long term contract for a programmer/developer is very high for the majority of the US market from what I have seen unless you are working on Wall St. as a specialized Quant or something.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Add to "expert developers with domain expertise in finance" also "cryptographic security specialists", "hardware reverse engineers", and "high-end SEO". There, you have 4 subspecialties of software development. Can we agree that the poll tops out too low now? :)
    - USNetizen 13y ago
      Ok, that kind of specialization may make some sense then for that rate. I was just inquiring because I had never seen a rate like that on a long-term contract before. I've personally run the typical gamut of development and project management contracts charging anywhere between $100/hr and $220/hr, but nothing heavily specialized (yet, anyway). Thanks.
wglb 13y ago
The last time I used a lawyer that was less than $400/hour it was for some routine real-estate closing. A routine contract review is $700/hour.
- dpe82 13y ago
  $700/hour? Do you have Cooley reviewing your contracts or something?
  - wglb 13y ago
    No, and for a short term (like 2-hour job) is not all that high, not all that unusual. He has about 30 years experience reviewing IP contracts and computer-related contracting agreements. I don't have to explain anything to him about the field.
photorized 13y ago
My lawyer's standard rate is $950.
patio11 13y ago
Who is paying that much and for what? There's a cottage industry of firms specializing in conversion rate optimization for X. (My consulting practice was in no small bit doing this for B2B software firms. "Conversion optimization for e-commerce", "conversion optimization for insurance industry", etc etc are also common specialties.) If you were hypothetically a client desiring top-tier talent, and you asked what $400 an hour would buy you, I'd say "One journeyman at a boutique firm... if you can find anybody with availability at that price." I was priced rather north of that for some of my consulting career. There were likely folks priced at a substantial premium to me. There are substantial programming/design skills implicated in this, obviously. (At some firms there is specialization of labor but at boutique firms typically all consultants do everything required to ship.) Edit to add: You asked who is buying this sort of thing. In my case, largely B2B software companies with revenues in the $10 to $X0 million range. In broader terms, almost every company which either does direct transactions or collects leads with value over $1 million per year should probably be buying this sort of consulting, and many of them do. What's your guesstimate on how many insurance companies there are which sell direct-to-consumer products in the US, for example? All of them are potential customers are this.
- barry-cotter 13y ago
  You are no longer in the consulting business? I suppose this speaks to your old post saying you can't buy good SEO consultants really.

46Bit 13y ago

> No offense, but my lawyer doesn't even charge me $400/hour. Just as with developers, if you're getting $400/hour you're not an ordinary lawyer working with ordinary people. You can get that if you've experience and knowledge in a particular domain.

jacques_chester 13y ago

It wouldn't be for programming work qua programming work. It'll be soft skills, specialist services and consulting related to that work. Eg, penetration testing. Software project management advice. Audits of IT processes. Requirements gathering workshops. Etc etc. Also, $400/hr would be high for a general suburban lawyer / solicitor. It's low to mid for a specialist. And suspiciously cheap for a barrister / trial lawyer (multiply by ten).

USNetizen 13y ago
Ok, that I might be able to see. I was thinking programming because that is what the poster asked about. I've charged in the $200/hr ballpark for project management work before, but, still, $400/hour seems way high for a long-term contract.
- jacques_chester 13y ago
  Basically, the path to $400/hr is to just keep upgrading your skills, keep networking and keep walking up your rates. There are businesses who'll pay without blinking. I see senior PM jobs quoted in thousands per day.
gutnor 13y ago
4000 $/hour for a trial lawyer ? I hope I never get arrested for anything in the US, my lawyer would cost me more in 2 days than what I make in a year (after taxes). I understand better why people settle all the time - who can afford to defend himself unless he is risking lifetime in jail ?
- aclevernickname 13y ago
  You can settle criminal charges in most countries. In Canada specifically, it's Section 11 of the Criminal Code that allows this. I know there's a similar section in US Code, but I can't remember. Any lawyer wish to do my homework for me? :)
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Being able to settle is something only the guilty should find relieving.
    - aclevernickname 13y ago
      while that's true, you notice that there's no "innocent" pleading in any of our courts; only two versions of "guilty". If you're charged in a court, you're either guilty, or guilty with the dishonor of a trial. While 100% exploitable by criminals, provisions like Section 11 are there to mitigate actual miscarriages of justice while keeping all parties in honor.
    - Falling3 13y ago
      You have way too much faith in the justice system. Surely, you know there are a non-trivial number of people wrongly convicted every year.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        No, I have no faith in the justice system. Currently the innocent find it comforting that they can settle, but that is now how it should be. "Being able to settle is something only the guilty SHOULD find relieving."

tptacek 13y ago

(a) Your lawyer makes you less money than a lot of software developers make for a lot for a lot of companies. Your lawyer is also considerably less scarce than a lot of software subspecialty practitioners are. (b) Your lawyer is also cheap. Sell a company and see what they charge. (c) I'm not saying it's wrong not to be charging $400/hr; I'm saying, if you want a representative sample of the spectrum of hourly rates consultant, $150 is much too low. There are technical subspecialties --- not business or vertical-focused --- that routinely beat $150.

USNetizen 13y ago
I'm asking WHAT specialties are charging this rate in the technical fields, because I haven't seen them, so I'm curious. Admittedly, my lawyer is general practice, so, yes, what they charge is based on that. But, still, $400/hr for a long term contract for a programmer/developer is very high for the majority of the US market from what I have seen unless you are working on Wall St. as a specialized Quant or something.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- tptacek 13y ago
  Add to "expert developers with domain expertise in finance" also "cryptographic security specialists", "hardware reverse engineers", and "high-end SEO". There, you have 4 subspecialties of software development. Can we agree that the poll tops out too low now? :)
  - USNetizen 13y ago
    Ok, that kind of specialization may make some sense then for that rate. I was just inquiring because I had never seen a rate like that on a long-term contract before. I've personally run the typical gamut of development and project management contracts charging anywhere between $100/hr and $220/hr, but nothing heavily specialized (yet, anyway). Thanks.

wglb 13y ago

The last time I used a lawyer that was less than $400/hour it was for some routine real-estate closing. A routine contract review is $700/hour.

dpe82 13y ago
$700/hour? Do you have Cooley reviewing your contracts or something?
- wglb 13y ago
  No, and for a short term (like 2-hour job) is not all that high, not all that unusual. He has about 30 years experience reviewing IP contracts and computer-related contracting agreements. I don't have to explain anything to him about the field.

photorized 13y ago

My lawyer's standard rate is $950.

patio11 13y ago

Who is paying that much and for what? There's a cottage industry of firms specializing in conversion rate optimization for X. (My consulting practice was in no small bit doing this for B2B software firms. "Conversion optimization for e-commerce", "conversion optimization for insurance industry", etc etc are also common specialties.) If you were hypothetically a client desiring top-tier talent, and you asked what $400 an hour would buy you, I'd say "One journeyman at a boutique firm... if you can find anybody with availability at that price." I was priced rather north of that for some of my consulting career. There were likely folks priced at a substantial premium to me. There are substantial programming/design skills implicated in this, obviously. (At some firms there is specialization of labor but at boutique firms typically all consultants do everything required to ship.) Edit to add: You asked who is buying this sort of thing. In my case, largely B2B software companies with revenues in the $10 to $X0 million range. In broader terms, almost every company which either does direct transactions or collects leads with value over $1 million per year should probably be buying this sort of consulting, and many of them do. What's your guesstimate on how many insurance companies there are which sell direct-to-consumer products in the US, for example? All of them are potential customers are this.

barry-cotter 13y ago
You are no longer in the consulting business? I suppose this speaks to your old post saying you can't buy good SEO consultants really.