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Fantastic. The OP scored. As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it mig

Fantastic. The OP scored. As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time to complete a degree before your life got more complicated. I've seen this happen. Not everyone is going to drop out of high school or college and launch a billion dollar company. Don't be a moron. Get a degree. BTW, I am not just talking about CS degrees. A friend of mine was rejected for a sales engineering job over someone with a BS in Architectural Landscaping. He had years of experience as a technology developer, just didn't have a degree. The large corporation a a strict requirement for BS degrees as a minimum, even if the degree was bullshit or unrelated. He was told they wanted to hire him but could not due to the lack of a college degree.

jmathai 13y ago
I generally agree with you. While I think college is drastically over priced (both in terms of time and money spent) it's the best option for the majority of people. There are exceptions though. And even for those exceptions it's not as if going to college hinders them. At most it delays what they would have done had they not gone to college. Truth is most people out of high school don't know what they want to do. Most probably don't have any marketable skills, aren't self driven enough to succeed without the safety net of a degree and don't have anything productive they'd do otherwise. College is the best option. However, if you're out of high school, driven and have acquired valuable skills and want to turn that into a business then you better think twice about jumping right into college. You're right, things do get complicated when you're 30 and with kids. It's 10x harder to go back to college OR start a company OR do the peace corps. This isn't a debate about what the value of college is (skills, connections, experience, etc.).
- robomartin 13y ago
  There are other aspects to this issue. I'll preface this by saying that I know this will be offensive to a number of people. So be it. American secondary/high-school education, outside of schools and communities outside the norm, is horribly bad. This is the reason Americans have a reputation for being ignorant. And that they are. I would venture to say that the average European secondary school graduate runs circles around American kids. I do realize I am generalizing to a grotesque degree. However, I have had the experience of hiring and working with a number of first year college students. A few surprise you because they are outside the norm: thoughtful, respectful, inquisitive and reasonably well informed. They generally came from families that valued education and somewhat old-fashioned cultural values. The rest? Well, let's just say they never lasted very long. College, for some, is a required level of remedial education. Kids are coming out of schools valuing drinking, partying and drugs far more than hard work, dedication, the ability to communicate, think and write. I have seen horrible examples of non-degreed individuals interacting in the context of a professional business environment. So, yeah, you get to 30, 40 or 50 years of age and things are very different. The cool coder with the dreadlocks and no degree might still be able to get a job. However, unless you are a superstar or run your own business you will have to go up against others with degrees during your job search. In a lot of cases you will loose, regardless of what your actual capabilities might be.
  - randomdata 13y ago
    > American secondary/high-school education, outside of schools and communities outside the norm, is horribly bad. I'm not sure it is that simple. I recall a recent article that said Canada has one of the best education systems, but, if I recall correctly, 70% of Canadians fit a certain demographic. If you observed only that same demographic in the US, the students in the US actually did better than their Canadian counterparts. It suggested the problem wasn't the education system in the US itself, but rather much deeper social problems. > In a lot of cases you will loose, regardless of what your actual capabilities might be. The good news for those without degrees is that high paying jobs are naturally, by the laws of supply and demand, the ones where employers cannot be picky. If you want to fight for the "bottom of the barrel" jobs, then sure, a degree is probably going to be a significant filtering device. If you're looking at top paying jobs, then outside of legal requirements, the degree isn't going to matter because employers will be happy to have found anyone with some skills. Programming is currently in that in-demand category, and as such the incomes are high and the education requirements are low. It is kind of funny to see that people think this is something genuinely unique to programming though. It is just economics.
    - robomartin 13y ago
      I am proposing that a degree becomes more important later on in life and that this is why one should obtain it as early as practical.
      - randomdata 13y ago
        I suppose we half-agree then. I always figured that retirement was the perfect time to obtain a degree. Wise enough to respect the teachings and old enough to (hopefully) have the time and money to spend on such luxuries.
        tracker1 13y ago
        I wish that more schools had drop-in options for simply auditing courses... it is far less of an option now than 20-30 years ago. I'd much rather sit in on some history classes than take half of the classes required for a degree in anything relevant to my field of work. I'm not going to make more now, or in the near future... I've had my time in management, don't think I really want it again. I see that a degree is really necessary for some.. and in some fields even more so... Most of the best programmers I've ever met are simply passionate about programming. Not about where their degree is from.
lsc 13y ago
>Not everyone is going to drop out of high school or college and launch a billion dollar company. Neither did this guy. Most of us without degrees did something similar to what this guy did; do a high dollar job for a while for a low-dollar wage, and eventually you build up enough reputation that you can get paid market rate. >As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time to complete a degree before your life got more complicated. I've seen this happen. Serious question: What is the downside to going back to school later? I mean, sure, if you have someone giving you free money to go to school, yeah, that might be a time-limited offer, and you should take it. All other things being equal, you should take free money. But for those of us who have to pay our own way? seems to me like it would be much easier to go back to school when you can make a bunch of money working part time. I mean, I don't know; I haven't seriously attempted to go to school. But I can tell you that when I work part-time, my hourly rate is more than 10x what I could get when I was 17, and trying to go to school while working. My cost of living isn't much higher than it was then, either. (biggest difference, probably is that I've gotta pay for health insurance now.) - I could live pretty comfortably and pay reasonable state school fees, contracting myself out 1/3rd of the time. So from where I stand now, in my early '30s? it looks like going to school would be way easier than it was when I was 17, and thinking I needed a degree to increase my salary above sustenance levels. But then, I haven't seriously tried to go back, so I don't know.
- robomartin 13y ago
  Going to school later on isn't a bad idea or impossible. It could be a good idea for some. I would guess for most it is difficult, if not impossible. Throw a couple of kids and a mortgage into the equation and it's really tough to make independent (and risky) decisions. At some level I am suggesting this has nothing to do with earning more money but rather being able to get a job and not loose it to someone with a degree. I don't know the answer to this question: How many technical people work at places like SpaceX without having at least a BS? Probably few, if any. You'd have to have a pretty serious track record to get past the filters at companies like that. I am not being elitist here. Not at all. I am merely suggesting that the reader consider want it might mean not to have a degree later in life.
randomdata 13y ago
> Don't be a moron. Get a degree. According to the stats for my region, 56% of women and 45% of men start into a degree program, yet the degree attainment rate is only 25%. I find this attitude a little bit troubling when such a large percentage of the population are already trying and failing. Given the costs – actual and opportunity – involved, unless you are certain you are in the top ~25% of students and can derive value from that expense, it seems rather foolish to follow said advice. Do what feels right for you and your situation. You know yourself better than anyone else and if you are truly doing what you want to do, there should be no regrets either way.
- robomartin 13y ago
  So long as you are willing to work way down the pay scale, sure. I am merely describing what I think is important in technical fields based on what I have seen around me over the years. I know a guy with enough college credit for four degrees. Never completed the requirements for any one degree. It was incredibly difficult for him to get a job as he got older. A degree would have opened a lot of doors. You go from having to explain and prove yourself to people assuming you are well qualified at a certain level. Look, I've also seen the opposite. I've seen PhD's who are just about worthless. I mean, not a clue. Can't connect the dots. I've seen enough of this to be absolutely biased against PhD's (sorry). Great for academic research but stay the fuck away from work where anything has to be done in the real world.
  - randomdata 13y ago
    > I know a guy with enough college credit for four degrees. It was incredibly difficult for him to get a job as he got older. There has been a lot of research gone into what makes someone financially successful and the current line of thinking seems to be that soft-skills, like stick-to-itiveness, are the primary factors. Someone who matches the description of your acquaintance doesn't exactly remind me of someone who is has a predisposition for success. Perhaps that has been his failing in the job marketplace and not the lack of a degree at all?
    - 13y ago
Techasura 13y ago
I don't have a college degree, i work for one of the new and successful startup today. Yes, i do regret about not having a degree sometimes[when i'm drunk]. But most of the times, my life is exactly what the OP has written. Life is fantastic for me today. i'm having 5 years of beautiful experience working on amazing things. Having a degree, you are constricting yourself to one thing. But for me, i'm free to try anything provided i have people and their support, which i have actually got over the past. I'm hoping to die happily now. I have tried 7 roles and perfected in one. I want to bring a change, not everyone can spend 7000$ to get a degree. That 7000$ can give food and life for a group of people for 5 years. Think my friend.
- dkokelley 13y ago
  > Having a degree, you are constricting yourself to one thing. But for me, i'm free to try anything provided i have people and their support, which i have actually got over the past. I will tell you right now that having a degree will not guarantee you even get to try that one thing. Likewise, not having a degree does not free you to work on anything your heart desires. Earning a degree is one way to grow your strengths or fill in your weaknesses in a field. I can't see any situation where having a degree in any subject will make you worse off than not having a degree. It just has to be worth the time, effort, and money to the person in question.
  - Techasura 13y ago
    I have seen many many people ... who are software engineers and they feel under estimated if they have to work as a designer. Many of my juniors express worda like, "I have my engineering and I m not happy working as a designer since I have done my software engineering". Most of the people who do engineering stick being an engineer and never try being something else. That was my point. where as me for instance, have worked on many areas tech support, designer, ,developer, customer service guy, computer repair guy, but work with UI since I like it the most. But what really matters is being open to exploring new things, but thats me. anyway.
    - jabbernotty 13y ago
bostonpete 13y ago
> A friend of mine was rejected for a sales engineering job... Seems like he wouldn't have even made it to the interview phase if the BS was a hard requirement imposed from above. Are you sure your friend wasn't just rationalizing why he didn't get hired? That said, I agree with your message -- get a degree folks...
therandomguy 13y ago
Yes. Exactly this. Please get a degree. You will have a great experience doing it and get a piece of paper that will make you employable at much higher salaries. Worst case you won't enjoy your time in college. Do it any way. Life is not about having everything your way every minute of your life. It is a marathon. Prepare yourself for the long haul. If you are worried about the debt there are plenty of great universities which are not all that expensive. Many schools also have the option of GA/TA where your tuition will be completely or partially waived off.
nitrogen 13y ago
Don't be a moron. Get a degree. People need to stop treating a "degree" as being equivalent to "an education." Instead of filtering by whether someone completed years of irrelevant, understimulating general education coursework, why not look at actual past performance and work sample tests? There needs to be an option for already "educated" people to bypass the process of getting a "degree".
- megablast 13y ago
  Can you think of a better single, instant indicator that someone is educated?
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    Why do you need a single, instant indicator that isn't even reliable? Once again, degree ≠ education. I did use the word educated in my last sentence, but the point I intended to convey is that instead of asking whether someone is "educated," employers and hyperjudgmental social peers should ask whether they're capable of doing their job and participating in an interesting conversation.
seanp2k2 13y ago
>"Don't be a moron. Get a degree." lol. >" The large corporation a a strict requirement for BS degrees as a minimum, even if the degree was bullshit or unrelated. He was told they wanted to hire him but could not due to the lack of a college degree." Sounds like a place I wouldn't want to work at. College has been productized to a disgusting degree. If you can do it, you absolutely should not waste years of your life going to college for something dumb vs. doing what you love. You CAN be successful without a degree if you really want it.

jmathai 13y ago

I generally agree with you. While I think college is drastically over priced (both in terms of time and money spent) it's the best option for the majority of people. There are exceptions though. And even for those exceptions it's not as if going to college hinders them. At most it delays what they would have done had they not gone to college. Truth is most people out of high school don't know what they want to do. Most probably don't have any marketable skills, aren't self driven enough to succeed without the safety net of a degree and don't have anything productive they'd do otherwise. College is the best option. However, if you're out of high school, driven and have acquired valuable skills and want to turn that into a business then you better think twice about jumping right into college. You're right, things do get complicated when you're 30 and with kids. It's 10x harder to go back to college OR start a company OR do the peace corps. This isn't a debate about what the value of college is (skills, connections, experience, etc.).

robomartin 13y ago
There are other aspects to this issue. I'll preface this by saying that I know this will be offensive to a number of people. So be it. American secondary/high-school education, outside of schools and communities outside the norm, is horribly bad. This is the reason Americans have a reputation for being ignorant. And that they are. I would venture to say that the average European secondary school graduate runs circles around American kids. I do realize I am generalizing to a grotesque degree. However, I have had the experience of hiring and working with a number of first year college students. A few surprise you because they are outside the norm: thoughtful, respectful, inquisitive and reasonably well informed. They generally came from families that valued education and somewhat old-fashioned cultural values. The rest? Well, let's just say they never lasted very long. College, for some, is a required level of remedial education. Kids are coming out of schools valuing drinking, partying and drugs far more than hard work, dedication, the ability to communicate, think and write. I have seen horrible examples of non-degreed individuals interacting in the context of a professional business environment. So, yeah, you get to 30, 40 or 50 years of age and things are very different. The cool coder with the dreadlocks and no degree might still be able to get a job. However, unless you are a superstar or run your own business you will have to go up against others with degrees during your job search. In a lot of cases you will loose, regardless of what your actual capabilities might be.
- randomdata 13y ago
  > American secondary/high-school education, outside of schools and communities outside the norm, is horribly bad. I'm not sure it is that simple. I recall a recent article that said Canada has one of the best education systems, but, if I recall correctly, 70% of Canadians fit a certain demographic. If you observed only that same demographic in the US, the students in the US actually did better than their Canadian counterparts. It suggested the problem wasn't the education system in the US itself, but rather much deeper social problems. > In a lot of cases you will loose, regardless of what your actual capabilities might be. The good news for those without degrees is that high paying jobs are naturally, by the laws of supply and demand, the ones where employers cannot be picky. If you want to fight for the "bottom of the barrel" jobs, then sure, a degree is probably going to be a significant filtering device. If you're looking at top paying jobs, then outside of legal requirements, the degree isn't going to matter because employers will be happy to have found anyone with some skills. Programming is currently in that in-demand category, and as such the incomes are high and the education requirements are low. It is kind of funny to see that people think this is something genuinely unique to programming though. It is just economics.
  - robomartin 13y ago
    I am proposing that a degree becomes more important later on in life and that this is why one should obtain it as early as practical.
    - randomdata 13y ago
      I suppose we half-agree then. I always figured that retirement was the perfect time to obtain a degree. Wise enough to respect the teachings and old enough to (hopefully) have the time and money to spend on such luxuries.
      - tracker1 13y ago
        I wish that more schools had drop-in options for simply auditing courses... it is far less of an option now than 20-30 years ago. I'd much rather sit in on some history classes than take half of the classes required for a degree in anything relevant to my field of work. I'm not going to make more now, or in the near future... I've had my time in management, don't think I really want it again. I see that a degree is really necessary for some.. and in some fields even more so... Most of the best programmers I've ever met are simply passionate about programming. Not about where their degree is from.

lsc 13y ago

>Not everyone is going to drop out of high school or college and launch a billion dollar company. Neither did this guy. Most of us without degrees did something similar to what this guy did; do a high dollar job for a while for a low-dollar wage, and eventually you build up enough reputation that you can get paid market rate. >As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time to complete a degree before your life got more complicated. I've seen this happen. Serious question: What is the downside to going back to school later? I mean, sure, if you have someone giving you free money to go to school, yeah, that might be a time-limited offer, and you should take it. All other things being equal, you should take free money. But for those of us who have to pay our own way? seems to me like it would be much easier to go back to school when you can make a bunch of money working part time. I mean, I don't know; I haven't seriously attempted to go to school. But I can tell you that when I work part-time, my hourly rate is more than 10x what I could get when I was 17, and trying to go to school while working. My cost of living isn't much higher than it was then, either. (biggest difference, probably is that I've gotta pay for health insurance now.) - I could live pretty comfortably and pay reasonable state school fees, contracting myself out 1/3rd of the time. So from where I stand now, in my early '30s? it looks like going to school would be way easier than it was when I was 17, and thinking I needed a degree to increase my salary above sustenance levels. But then, I haven't seriously tried to go back, so I don't know.

robomartin 13y ago
Going to school later on isn't a bad idea or impossible. It could be a good idea for some. I would guess for most it is difficult, if not impossible. Throw a couple of kids and a mortgage into the equation and it's really tough to make independent (and risky) decisions. At some level I am suggesting this has nothing to do with earning more money but rather being able to get a job and not loose it to someone with a degree. I don't know the answer to this question: How many technical people work at places like SpaceX without having at least a BS? Probably few, if any. You'd have to have a pretty serious track record to get past the filters at companies like that. I am not being elitist here. Not at all. I am merely suggesting that the reader consider want it might mean not to have a degree later in life.

randomdata 13y ago

> Don't be a moron. Get a degree. According to the stats for my region, 56% of women and 45% of men start into a degree program, yet the degree attainment rate is only 25%. I find this attitude a little bit troubling when such a large percentage of the population are already trying and failing. Given the costs – actual and opportunity – involved, unless you are certain you are in the top ~25% of students and can derive value from that expense, it seems rather foolish to follow said advice. Do what feels right for you and your situation. You know yourself better than anyone else and if you are truly doing what you want to do, there should be no regrets either way.

robomartin 13y ago
So long as you are willing to work way down the pay scale, sure. I am merely describing what I think is important in technical fields based on what I have seen around me over the years. I know a guy with enough college credit for four degrees. Never completed the requirements for any one degree. It was incredibly difficult for him to get a job as he got older. A degree would have opened a lot of doors. You go from having to explain and prove yourself to people assuming you are well qualified at a certain level. Look, I've also seen the opposite. I've seen PhD's who are just about worthless. I mean, not a clue. Can't connect the dots. I've seen enough of this to be absolutely biased against PhD's (sorry). Great for academic research but stay the fuck away from work where anything has to be done in the real world.
- randomdata 13y ago
  > I know a guy with enough college credit for four degrees. It was incredibly difficult for him to get a job as he got older. There has been a lot of research gone into what makes someone financially successful and the current line of thinking seems to be that soft-skills, like stick-to-itiveness, are the primary factors. Someone who matches the description of your acquaintance doesn't exactly remind me of someone who is has a predisposition for success. Perhaps that has been his failing in the job marketplace and not the lack of a degree at all?
  - 13y ago

Techasura 13y ago

I don't have a college degree, i work for one of the new and successful startup today. Yes, i do regret about not having a degree sometimes[when i'm drunk]. But most of the times, my life is exactly what the OP has written. Life is fantastic for me today. i'm having 5 years of beautiful experience working on amazing things. Having a degree, you are constricting yourself to one thing. But for me, i'm free to try anything provided i have people and their support, which i have actually got over the past. I'm hoping to die happily now. I have tried 7 roles and perfected in one. I want to bring a change, not everyone can spend 7000$ to get a degree. That 7000$ can give food and life for a group of people for 5 years. Think my friend.

dkokelley 13y ago
> Having a degree, you are constricting yourself to one thing. But for me, i'm free to try anything provided i have people and their support, which i have actually got over the past. I will tell you right now that having a degree will not guarantee you even get to try that one thing. Likewise, not having a degree does not free you to work on anything your heart desires. Earning a degree is one way to grow your strengths or fill in your weaknesses in a field. I can't see any situation where having a degree in any subject will make you worse off than not having a degree. It just has to be worth the time, effort, and money to the person in question.
- Techasura 13y ago
  I have seen many many people ... who are software engineers and they feel under estimated if they have to work as a designer. Many of my juniors express worda like, "I have my engineering and I m not happy working as a designer since I have done my software engineering". Most of the people who do engineering stick being an engineer and never try being something else. That was my point. where as me for instance, have worked on many areas tech support, designer, ,developer, customer service guy, computer repair guy, but work with UI since I like it the most. But what really matters is being open to exploring new things, but thats me. anyway.
  - jabbernotty 13y ago

bostonpete 13y ago

> A friend of mine was rejected for a sales engineering job... Seems like he wouldn't have even made it to the interview phase if the BS was a hard requirement imposed from above. Are you sure your friend wasn't just rationalizing why he didn't get hired? That said, I agree with your message -- get a degree folks...

therandomguy 13y ago

Yes. Exactly this. Please get a degree. You will have a great experience doing it and get a piece of paper that will make you employable at much higher salaries. Worst case you won't enjoy your time in college. Do it any way. Life is not about having everything your way every minute of your life. It is a marathon. Prepare yourself for the long haul. If you are worried about the debt there are plenty of great universities which are not all that expensive. Many schools also have the option of GA/TA where your tuition will be completely or partially waived off.

nitrogen 13y ago

Don't be a moron. Get a degree. People need to stop treating a "degree" as being equivalent to "an education." Instead of filtering by whether someone completed years of irrelevant, understimulating general education coursework, why not look at actual past performance and work sample tests? There needs to be an option for already "educated" people to bypass the process of getting a "degree".

megablast 13y ago
Can you think of a better single, instant indicator that someone is educated?
- nitrogen 13y ago
  Why do you need a single, instant indicator that isn't even reliable? Once again, degree ≠ education. I did use the word educated in my last sentence, but the point I intended to convey is that instead of asking whether someone is "educated," employers and hyperjudgmental social peers should ask whether they're capable of doing their job and participating in an interesting conversation.

seanp2k2 13y ago

>"Don't be a moron. Get a degree." lol. >" The large corporation a a strict requirement for BS degrees as a minimum, even if the degree was bullshit or unrelated. He was told they wanted to hire him but could not due to the lack of a college degree." Sounds like a place I wouldn't want to work at. College has been productized to a disgusting degree. If you can do it, you absolutely should not waste years of your life going to college for something dumb vs. doing what you love. You CAN be successful without a degree if you really want it.